Orijinalini görmek için tıklayınız : Elinizdeki Çeviriler...
Arkadaslar, ben kimin hangi ceviriyi yaptigini cozemez oldum. Bundan sonra calistiginiz ceviriyi buraya asarsaniz, kimin ne yaptigini bilebilecegim.
thh rüşvetle müslüman olanlar ve görüş değiştiren tanrı makalelerini aldım.
hysteria, muhammed'in ogretmenlerini ceviriyor
Ucuncuyol; Bilmiyorum.
aydoe'ya KURAN'IN TANRISININ BEDDUALARIni veriyorum.
Metalheart; İSLAMA GÖRE TÜRKLER İSTESELER DE MÜSLÜMAN OLAMAZLAR i veriyorum.
* Lutfen bu konulari daha once alan varsa buraya yazsin.
* Hepinize sevgiler ve iyi calismalar.
Vartor,
MUHAMMED'İN CİNSEL HAYATI 1 ve MUHAMMED'İN CİNSEL HAYATI 2 makalelerini aldim. Birincisi bitmek uzere.
paylasimlar:
• MUHAMMED'İN CİNSEL HAYATI 1.......................................ucuncuyol
• MUHAMMED'İN CİNSEL HAYATI 2.........................................ucuncuyo l
• AY İKİYE BÖLÜNÜP YERE DÜŞMÜŞ
• KURAN'IN TANRISI NEREDE?
• RÜŞVETLE MÜSLÜMAN OLANLAR........................................... ......thh
• ŞEYTAN AYETLERİ İSLAMIN GERÇEĞİ
• GÖRÜŞ DEĞİŞTİREN TANRI............................................. ............thh
• KURAN'IN TANRISININ BEDDUALARI........................................ .....aydoe
• MUHAMMED'İN DOKTORLUĞU
• KURAN'IN ORİJİNALLERİ YAKILDIĞI İÇİN YOK
• ÇAMURDAN YARATILIŞ
• İSLAM VE ŞİDDET
• İSLAMA GÖRE TÜRKLER İSTESELER DE MÜSLÜMAN OLAMAZLAR..............metalheart
• MUHAMMED'İN ÖĞRETMENLERİ...................................... ....................hysteria
• MUHAMMED'İN ŞEYTANI DİREĞE BAĞLAMAKTAN VAZGEÇMESİ
• İSLAMIN İNANÇ KAYNAKLARINDAN BİRİ: ZERDÜŞTLÜK
Arkadaslar bana da verin bir makale cevireyim.
hata kimse almadiysa ben "AY İKİYE BÖLÜNÜP YERE DÜŞMÜŞ" isimli makaleyi cevirmeye baslayayim.
o makale na sayfada yer alıyor, zannedersem. Onu çevrilmiş sayalım. Alınmamış başka bir makaleyi al.
KURAN'IN TANRISI NEREDE?
bunu alayim mi?
tamam boş gözüküyor, kolay *gelsin.
paylasimlar:
• MUHAMMED'İN CİNSEL HAYATI 1.......................................ucuncuyol
• MUHAMMED'İN CİNSEL HAYATI 2.........................................ucuncuyo l
• AY İKİYE BÖLÜNÜP YERE DÜŞMÜŞ ...................................... *ana sayfada var
• KURAN'IN TANRISI NEREDE? *............................................. * *respendial
• RÜŞVETLE MÜSLÜMAN OLANLAR........................................... ......thh
• GÖRÜŞ DEĞİŞTİREN TANRI............................................. ............thh
• KURAN'IN TANRISININ BEDDUALARI........................................ .....aydoe
• İSLAMA GÖRE TÜRKLER İSTESELER DE MÜSLÜMAN OLAMAZLAR..............metalheart
• MUHAMMED'İN ÖĞRETMENLERİ...................................... ....................hysteria
• MUHAMMED'İN DOKTORLUĞU .................................................. ....aydoe
• KURAN'IN ORİJİNALLERİ YAKILDIĞI İÇİN YOK ..............................respendial
paylaşım bekleyenler :
• ÇAMURDAN YARATILIŞ
• İSLAM VE ŞİDDET
• MUHAMMED'İN ŞEYTANI DİREĞE BAĞLAMAKTAN VAZGEÇMESİ
• ŞEYTAN AYETLERİ İSLAMIN GERÇEĞİ
• İSLAMIN İNANÇ KAYNAKLARINDAN BİRİ: ZERDÜŞTLÜK
* * * *son durum yukarıdaki gibi gözüküyr. Elimizde şu anda çevrilmeyi bekleyen 7 adet makale var.
metalheart
21-12-2007, 21:51
elimdeki bitirdikten sonra 1 tane daha çevirebilirim..
Metalheart ve thh arkadaşlardan bir haber varmı?
Ben "Kuran'in orjinalleri, yakildigi icin yok" isimli makaleyi cevirmek istiyorum eger sizin icin uygunsa.
Valla, kimseden ses yok, herhalde haril haril calisiyorlardir.
*Tabi ki mahsuru yok, cevirebilirsin.
Bende Muhammedin Doktorluğunu çevirmeye çalışayım,
Saygılar
iyi olur aydoe, tesekkurler.
yukarıdaki listeyi son duruma göre güncelledim. Bu durumda paylaşılmamış 5 makale kalmış oluyor.
* * saygılarımla
grubun son durumu nedir, uzun süredir grubu boşladık. Elimizde hala bekleyen işler olması gerekiyor. Vartor iş planını ve kalan makaleleri bir kere daha belirtebilir misin. erhalde yeni bir görev dagılımı yapmak gerekecek.
Bu arada grupta hala çalışmayı isteyen ve çeviri yapacak arkadaşların kendilerini belirtmesi yerinde olur.
Bu grubun en faal grup olması gerekiyor ama nedense asla ilk başladıgımız günkü coşkuyu bir daha yakalayamadık.
saygılarımla
Bence muhammed biktirdi milleti, bir ceviren bir daha bulasmak istemiyor,
• MUHAMMED'İN CİNSEL HAYATI 2..................................l
• MUHAMMED'İN ÖĞRETMENLERİ................. ...................
• ÇAMURDAN YARATILIŞ......................................... ...... kızılordu üstlendi
• İSLAM VE ŞİDDET............................................ .........
• ŞEYTAN AYETLERİ İSLAMIN GERÇEĞİ.................
• İSLAMIN İNANÇ KAYNAKLARINDAN BİRİ: ZERDÜŞTLÜK .......
İzledigim kadarıyla bu makalelerin tercümeleri tamamlanmadı. Şayet yanılıyorsam düzeltin.
Şİmdi gruba yeni bir şekil vermek gerekiyor. Tercüme faaliyetine destek olacakların öne çıkması ya da yeni tercüme yapacak arkadaşların bulunması gerekiyor.
saygılarımla
çamurdan yaratılış ı alıyorum sorun yoksa ingilizceye mi çevrilecek??
öyleyse 4 günde bitirebilirim...
tesekkurler kizilordu, hadi kolay gelsin.
vartor usta affına sığınarak 4 gün belirttiğim çeviriyi 2 gün uzatarak altı güne çıkartmak zorundayım ansızın hataydan misafirlerim geldi 2 gün onlarla olacağım. en geç 7. gün çeviri elinizde olacaktır..
saygılar..
iki gunun lafi mi olur kizilordu? Umarim iyi vakit gecirirsin misafirlerinle.
Degerli arkadaslar, milomanara gurubumuza katildi ve calismalarina basladi, gurupmadina kendisine hos geldin diyor, gelecek cevirilerde basarilar diliyorum.
Kendisini hemen guruba dahil edemedim, yeni sitemde bazi bozukluklar uye dahil etme optionunu kaldirmis, veya ben beceremiyorum. Ancak Frodo'ya rica edince admin panelinden isi halletti. Ilk calismasi seytan ayetlerinin cevirisi asagida;
Satanic versus, the truth of islam
Have you seen al-Lat, al-‘Uzza, Manah; here, they are glorious cranes. Certainly their intercession is expected.
Muhammad
According to the records, the words known as “The Satanic Verses” are first included in Quran as verses and since goddesses called “al-lat, al-‘uzza, manah” has been blessed by these verses, idolaters joined to the prayers with Muhammad and his followers. This subject should be discussed calmly for the integrity of science. No need to worry or get over excited. If there is a fact –and there is a fact-, it’s doesn’t make sense to say “no there is no such thing”
Some controverts has shown behavior, according to Khomeini’s murder soliciting fatwa and attacked over and over again.
Now, let's look at the facts mentioned with their evidences:
1-Verses mentions and taken as backing up the case of "the Satanic Verses":
a) 52nd verse of Hajj Surah and following verses.
In 52nd verse it's told that satan annexes somethings to the things that all prophets read. But god sets them null and void and sets his own verses valid -right. As it seems the expression is inline with statements supporting the verses known as satanic verses, placed in Quran and then taken out, placed by satan, taken out by god thorugh gabriel. Besides, that's why interpretations see these verses are the mirror of this event. They find similar experession of this event in the following verses of 52nd.
b)73rd and 75th verses of Israa surah:
Meanings of these verses are as follows:
"And they indeed strove hard to beguile thee (Muhammad) away from that wherewith We have inspired thee, that thou shouldst invent other than it against Us; and then would they have accepted thee as a friend. Then had we made thee taste a double (punishment) of living and a double (punishment) of dying, then hadst thou found no helper against Us."
2-Hadiths:
Hadith 1: EKSİK HADİS
QUESTION:
1-How did Muhammad and idolaters who are featured as his sworn enemies got together?
2-How did idolaters prayed with Muhammad?
To be able to find the answers to these questions, following two hadith should be well studied.
Haidth2: "Prophet was reading Al-Najm surah in Mekka, when it comes to the part, "Have you seen al-Lat, al-'Uzza and Manah which is one other(idol)?" satan delivered these to prophet's tongue.
"here, they are glorious cranes. Certainly their intercession is expected." Hereupon idolaters:
"Muhammad not before, today mentioned our goddesses with good words!" They said.
Yet again prophet prostrated and they also prostrated. Here for this reason god sent following verse:
"Never did We send a messenger or a prophet before thee, but, when he framed a desire, Satan threw some (vanity) into his desire: but Allah will cancel anything (vain) that Satan throws in, and Allah will confirm (and establish) His Signs: for Allah is full of Knowledge and Wisdom:"(Al-Hajj Surah, verse:52) (Narrators are prophets friends: a group which Abdullah Ibn Abbas among them. Source: Suyuti Ibn Hacar)
And it clearly seems that:
The reason why idolaters prayed with prophet is: "Prophet's mentioning of these three idols with blessing words and reading it as verse." The verses composed of these words are not gods but "satan's verses". These verses pulled out of surah later. The quotation in 52nd verse of Hajj surah brings us this conclusion.
No need to say much about this subject. The greatest masters of Islam Suyuti and Ibn Hacar accept hadith as safe and true. Both Suyuti and Ibn Hacar are trusted with their judgments when it comes to differentiate which hadith is true and which is false in world of islam
milomanara
24-06-2008, 10:23
Herkes'e merhaba,
Çeviriyi aşağıda bulabilirsiniz. Değerli yorumlarınızı beklerim.
http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=ddqbjr7c_0fn3w44fh
Sevgiler,
Sevgili milonamara
Eline, emegine saglık. Son derece hızlı bir tercüme oldu bu. Vakit durumun müsaitse istedigin zaman kalan makalelerle devam edebilirsin.
Bu arada gozeneli de aramıza katılmış durumda, ondan da kalan makalelerden birini seçmesini isteyelim. Gerçi uzunlar kaldı, bu makaleleri iki kişi de paylaşabilir.
saygılarımla.
• MUHAMMED'İN CİNSEL HAYATI 2..................................l
• MUHAMMED'İN ÖĞRETMENLERİ................. ................... kızılordu
• İSLAM VE ŞİDDET............................................ .........
• İSLAMIN İNANÇ KAYNAKLARINDAN BİRİ: ZERDÜŞTLÜK .......
Makaleleri ana sayfadan bulabilirsiniz. Ana sayfanın tercümesi için geriye dört makalemiz kalmış.
Edit: Makaleler üçe indi, ha gayret
saygılarımla
benim çeviride bitti nasıl ulaştıracam sizlere??
çok kısıtlı zamanım olduğu için sadece muhammedin öğretmenleri çevirisinide alacağım kusura bakmayın başka bişey alamıyacam şehir dışında olacağım....
sevgili kızılordu, bu başlıga asabilirsiniz.
saygılarımla
çamurdan yaratılış burda bir göz atın bakalım ozaman....
CREATION FROM MUD
“I swear an oath, we create human beings from mud. Then we seated it in a safe place in case of pure water ( sperm ). We worked up the pure water into a gore, then turned the gore into a chew of meat , created bones from a chew of meat, and dressed bones with meat. And later, we made it a different creation. What a big renown that is Allah’s who is the most beautiful of all creators.” ( Mü’minün, verses 12-16. )
Qoran, the holy book of Islam tells the creation like that. We read the same telling in more suras: “ it is the truth that we create them from squishy mud. “ ( Es Safaat, 11 ), “ He create human being from a bone-dry argil that is tinkling like a glass.”( Er-Rahman, 14)
Into Sad Sura, with the Devil that is doubtful about the creation of human being Allah is arguing : “in the time of disputation your god had said angels that ‘I would certainly create a human from mud. When I completed him and puffed out my soul to the insade of him, kowtow for him imediately: All angels kowtowed in the lump. In regard to the Demon, he patronized and become one of the blasphemouses. Allah said : “ O Demon, what is it that keep you from kowtowing for the one I create with my omnipotence? Do you boast ? Or are you inordinately proud ? “ Demon said: “ I am more auspicious than him. You created me from fire but created him from mud.” ( Sad:71-76 )
As to Quran, Adam was created from mud, later Eve from his rib, later Habil and Kabil from the combination of both. Story goes like that.
Sıtkı is in Luksor Temple
Sıtkı was a faithful young. He never missed his namaz and fast. He graduated from Imam Hatip. His only aim was to specialize in. He lived in Süleymaniye’ back streets. Hi father was a draper. In nights he read Quran and hadith books.he was a cruious young, he was interested in philosophy. His all think was to study in El-Ezher in Eigypt.
In the end, his father made a decision. He would send Sıtkı to Eigypt with his all money. His son would study there. Sıtkı become very happy.
Eigypt fascinated Sıtkı. He would go around, make sight and make research. One day, he started to walk around the famous Luksor Temple. There was a catalogue in his hand. He started to make hay of its pages. What is it? What an interesting cartouche. Immediately he read the writing below it : “ we see God Khnemu who is described as King Amonhotap III while he is crearing two poeple ,male and female, on potter’s wheel.”
Suddenly a lightning flashed in Sıtkı’s mind. Immediately went near the cartouche. He remembered suras from Quran. Quran said that first human was created from mud. Here, on the cartouche in front of him Khnemu that was bullock-headed Eigypt God was creating human giving shape to mud like a potter. Also, that cartouche was belong to centuries before Quran verses’ coming down. He said “gracious me “.
Sıtkı was lost in thought. he wondered how were the creation stories of old ages’ other civilizations? “ It had to be asked to Gods “he thought. later he was angry with himself. How was he thinking. In Eigypt the weather was very depressive. He got loose. In a dim corner of Luksor Temple resigned himself to sweet dreams. Suddenly he was shaken, he would make research. Sıtkı brought together all old fables, mythology and archeology books. He was reading continually, among pages of books he was calling Gods and talking with them.
Zeus Had also Used Mud
“ O almighty God Zeus, let’s climb down the Mountain Olimpus. Let’ take Prometheus and come “ Sıtkı was crying out like that towards Mountain Olimpus. Zeus was also surprised. Below a humankind was commanding him. How could it be? Zeus tought there had to be a reason. He took Prometheus on and climbed down with curiosity.
“Prometheus,before you tell me how did you create human?”
“O humankind, man of 2000 years, I will tell.” said Prometheus. Not to make mistake he thought properly and started to talk : “My father , Titan Giapeto was in war with Zeus. Zeus punished my big brothers, Menezius and Atlas. I did not crusade. But, I did not like Zeus. Because he was far out with miseries and vapidities all over the world. I hated him. At last I gave a decision. I had to create soulful creations like me. I worked up soil into mud with my tears and impasted it. I made an human statue. Later I gave tone to that statue. In this way first mortal creatures were created.”
“ O Prometheus why did you use mud? “ asked Sıtkı.
“I do not know.” Said Prometheus . “ I saw from previous Gods like this. I was trained like this. For example, Zeus had also created humankind like this.”
How cuold they know what Sıtkı thinks. They never read Quran. He looked mythology book in his hand. Prometheus was telling truth. He retuned Zeus in a fury:
“ you,cruel god, tell me how did you create human? “
“I called glorious Hephaistos immediately, ı said him ‘ take one piece of soil, mix up with water. Put down human voice and human power in it. Make up a creation which looks like immortal godnesses.’ Great Hephaistos, lame god, made immediately what I said. He worked up soil into a girl. He put down voice in her and gave her the name Pandora. I created humankind like that.”
Zeus sweated rather good in front of Sıtkı. Great Greek God, could not tell lie. Hesiodos Epic that was written in 8th B.C. was also telling story like that.
“ O Zeus, did you not find anything different from mud to create humankind?” Asked Sıtkı. For example, if human had been created from iron or stone, maybe his essential nature would be stronger. “ Our customs are like that.” Said Zeus. “ Before me, Marduk had also created humankind like that.”
First Slurry in Sumers
“ So, let’s go back to your great mountain.” commanded Sıtkı. Now Marduk was prepossessing Sıtkı’s mind. Marduk was the god of Sumer. He lived in Mezopotamia. He looked on his book. Tabloids which were based on the First Sumer Period and belong to 7th B.C. were found during the archeologic excavations between 1914-1929. In Sumer Legends of which date of taking form was reaching to before 4000years, in Enuma-eliş Legend Madruk was talked about.
Sıtkı suffled pages. Whiile shuffling, he found himself on plentiful lands where Dicle and Fırat were combining. He yelled “Marduuuuk”. Marduk had come immediately. “tell me your trouble humankind” he said.
“the God of Olimpus Zeus talked about you. Tell me how did you create human.” said Sıtkı.
“our old gods had thanked to me for things I did. They said that they were very contented, but they needed a creation which would servet hem and was not in the quality of a god. Upon this, I asked for Ea’s help. I kneaded soil with Kingu’s blood. And I created first human. “
Sıtkı thought how could be so much resemblance. Or Marduk was boasting? He found Enuma-eliş Legend out of his book. He read it. Amazing! Not only in Enuma-eliş but also in other Sumer Legends like Ullikumi, Sankhuniation mud had been used as the first mortar of creation. He thanked Marduk. ” you well opened my mind dear Marduk .” he said.
Marduk was also amazed. Who was that humankind ? How could he query gods? Zeus informed him beforehand. “ be careful “he said. “so called Sıtkı is man of 2000 years. “ “ I must call Arura “ Marduk thought “ after all we must ack with solidarity in this age. Humankind run riot”.
Also in Gilgamesh Creation is From Mud
Sıtkı was reading constantly. Some time or other, he found Gilgamesh Legend. He had read it before. But he had never examine according to creation. “ let’s read “ he said himself.
Suddently Arura appeared in front of Sıtkı. It was a heaven-sent opportunity.”O great Arura “ he said. “ I am making research ,I am asking all gods so that how you create human”. Arura was prepared. He took information from Marduk. He know that one opposite him was not duped. He said ” the best is to tell the truth” and started to talk. “ The great god of sky Anu-ki, I created him- he listened to Uruk Public’s cry of distress- he called me ‘you ‘ he said ‘created me, now create my mind’. As soon as I heard this I created Anu’s mind in my heart. I washed my hands. I threw a piece of mud into writing. And in this writing I created hero Engidu. Engidu that I created from mud, is strong like iron. Whole of his body is jetblack with hair. He has long hairs like a woman. “
Sıtkı thinks “he tells the truth”. He remembered Gilgamesh Legend. But the matter of mud had not taken his attention so far. Now everything took place in his mind. The first mortar in legends of plentiful lands was mud.
Firstly From Insect, When It Does not Work, From Mud
If gods of distant lands had also created human from mud ? Sıtkı thought that “Chineses were interesting.” “let’s take a looking on them” . He went on reading books. He found the part of Chinese Legends. It was talking about God Pen-gu. He called out to Pen-gu. Pen-gu come on the wings of phoenix (Zümrüdü Anka).
“ tell me great Pen-gu” asked Sıtkı “ how did you create human?”
“ I was very strong.” said Pen-gu. ” divided air into two as soil and sky. Then I died. Winds come into existence out of my breath, thunders out of my voice, sun and moon out of my eyes, mountains out of my body, river and sea out of my blood, stars out of my hair, rain out of my sweat. Later human come into existence out of wiggling insects in my rotten body.”
“ yess!” yelled Sıtkı “ Just now I found a different story. Then Chinese are coming from insect. “
“ do not finish yet, be patient.” Said Great Pen-gu,with a wise attitude and go on.
“ In course of time, a part of sky made away with mankind by falling down to the seas. Upon this , Goddess Ngüho casted up sky with her crab-hands , pushed seas to the borderline again and created a new kind of human from mud.”
“ Amazing”said Sıtkı. “ then Chinese Gods also created human from mud.” He thanked to Pen-gu.
From Tora to Quran
Where Sıtkı looked at he come across with creation from mud. Yes ,all of them had copied each other.
What was Tora telling? Here he found one. He read it.
“ And God said: ‘ In our form, like us we should make a human / and God created human in his form,created him in God’s form. / and God created Adam from the soil of land and blew out to his nose breath of life and Adam become a living soul. / but for Adam proper accessary could not be found. And God brought a deep sleep over him and he slept and God took someone from his rib and covered its place with meat. / and God created a woman from the rib that God took from Adam and brought her to Adam. “
This creation story which was going on with the first sin of Adam and Eve and their getting the sack from the City of God also passed to Quran.
Why Mud?
“Why mud?” thought Sıtkı. Maybe our ancestors attached a special importance to water and soil which responeded to their all needs and was very necessary to them. When water and soil were joined together mud occured. In fact, all systems of academic ideas and legends coming through our days come into leaf in Dicle, Fırat,Nile and Indus’s watery and plentiful lands. These lands that created great civilizations laid up rich fables. It was impossible not to understand gratefulness of people that were thousand years before.
Etymologic Evolution of Middle East Gods
God’s names of civilization lived in different ages in Middle East shows an interesting evolution :
In Hebrews sometimes it becomes ‘Yahova’, sometimes ‘Elohim’. Text separations are fixed leaning on the lines in which names of these two gods in Tora, Yehova and Eloha are passing. With the word ‘elah’ in Arami, word ‘eloha’in Tora are shown in Bible from mouth of Jesus in form that ‘Eloi, eloi, Lama sabachtani’(my god,my god,why did you leave me?). Also word ‘ilahi’ which is used for musculine god in Arabs before Islam. In some suras of Quran in places word ‘ilah’ is come across.
the summary of “human as created from mud” legends
the idea of ’human was created from mud’that was talked about in holy books was shown in legends that were written by people who lived in ages that were too much before holy books’ going forth. It is a sign that to holy books quoted from these legends. Statements in these legends and holy books are like that:
1) Gilgamesh Legend : “ I washed my hands. I took a piece of mud and threw it to the writting. And in this writting, I created Hero Endigu.”
2)Enuma-eliş Legend of Sumars: “Upon this, I asked for Ea’ help. I kneaded soil with Kingu’blood. And I created first human. “
3) From Chinese Legends: “Upon this , Goddess Ngüho casted up sky with her crab-hands , pushed seas to the borderline again and created a new kind of human from mud.”
4) A cartouche in Luksor Temple in Eigypt : “ we see God Khnemu who is described as King Amonhotap III while he is crearing two poeple ,male and female, on potter’s wheel.”
5) Hesiodos Legend: “ I called glorious Hephaistos immediately, ı said ‘ take one piece of soil, mix up with water. ‘ put down human voice and human power in it.”
6) From Greek Legends: “ I worked up soil into mud with my tears and impasted it(Prometheus was talking.) I made an human statue. Later I gave tone to that statue. In this way first mortal creatures were created. “
7) From Tora:“ and God created Adam from the soil of land and blew out to his nose breath of life and Adam become a living soul.”
8) Quran, Mü’minün 12-16: “I swear an oath, we create human beings from mud.”
9) Quran, Es-Safaat 11: “it is the truth that we create them from squishy mud. “
10) Quran, Sad 71-76: “I will certainly create a human from mud. When I complete him and puff out my soul to the insade of him, kowtow for him imediately”
Eline saglik kizilordu, ilk bakista iyi ifade edilmis gibi gorunuyor, imla icin spelling programindan gecirmeyi dusunuyorum. Tekrar tesekkurler.
sevgili vartor gereken kontrolü yapıpta bana durum bildirirmisin eleştiriye uyarıya açığım ona göre bu diğer çeviriyi daha güzel yapmaya çalışacağım....
muhammedin öğretmenleri çevirisini alıyorum yarın başlıyacağım 5 gün için de bitirmeye çalışacağım....
Sayın başkan
Şu anda bitmiş iki tercüme var gibi gözüküyor. Bunların ok yini verip yayına hazır tercümeler diye bir başlık altında belirtmekte fayda var.
Bu arada milomanara yeni görev almıyor mu. GÖZENELİ NE OLDU: Kızılordu senin ordun gelişiyor, orduda görev almak isteyen arkadaşlar var mı.
Saygılarımla
sevgili dilaver usta önce ordumu kuram organize edem sonra görev almak isteyene illaki veririz ama ben daha çok görev almaya teşvik edecem :)
milomanara
30-06-2008, 22:46
Sevgili dilaver,
Geçen hafta peder bey tarafından baskına uğradık :) rakı içip sanat müziği dinlemekten içim bayıldı ama ne yaparsınız. İslam ve şiddetle devam edebilirim. Bir haftada falan bitiririm sanıyorum.
sevgiler,
Sagolasın milonamara
İşin zor kısmı sona kaldı , en uzun metinler kaldı.
• MUHAMMED'İN CİNSEL HAYATI 2..................................l
• İSLAMIN İNANÇ KAYNAKLARINDAN BİRİ: ZERDÜŞTLÜK .......
Td makalelerinin bitmesi için bu iki metin kaldı. Bunları aslında paylaşarak da çevirebiliriz. Bir iki ya da üç kişi paylaşabilir.
Bu arada asinar hayatta mı, burayı okuyabiliyor mu.
Sevgili asinar sesimi duyuyorsan elma de. :)
saygılarımla
arkadaşlar çeviride bie kelime ilekarşılaştım ve anlamını bilmıyorum yardım edebilecek olan vardır heralde? "mütevatır" ne demek? birde bildiğiniz bir arapça sözlük var mı?
milomanara
01-07-2008, 23:56
Sevgili kızılordu,
İki kelime var aşağıda yazıyorum:
mütevatı: 1. Birbirine benzeyen. 2.(fels.) Tek anlamlı.
mütevatir, mütevatire: Ağızdan ağza yayılan, halk arasında söylenilen.
kaynak: bilgi yayınevi osmanlıca-türkçe sözlük.
eyvallah sağolasın ya bu kelimeler yüzünden çeviride sorun oluor .....
evet son çeviride tamam MUHAMMEDİN ÖĞRETMENLERİ
yorumlarınızı beklıyorum!!
TEACHERS OF MUHAMMAD
Teachers of Muhammad?
Bel'am, Yaiş, Addas, Yessar, Cebr, İranlı Selman
What Quran says about this?
“God” in Quran makes an explanation taking an oath ordinarily.
“ I swear an oath, we know they say that someone certainly instruct him( Muhammad).the person who they base their allegation on has a different language. But this (Quran) is in Arabic openly. “( Nahl,verse:103)
Verses after this, ‘unbeliever’ are frightened, defined as ‘ liar,slanderer’ and it is declared that they will be punished with grueling penalty.
In verse above,it is pointed out that the person who is told as the teacher of Muhammad ‘is not Arab, is a foreigner’.
Greek Bel’am, Yaiş…
According to ones, Muhammad’s teacher was a Greek slave. A slave named as Bel'am.
Ibn Abbas tells:
“They talked that’Prophet was teaching a slave in Mekka. He was foreigner. He worshiped idol. His name was Bel’am. In the entry, exit and alongside of Prophet they saw idolaters. The one who teached ‘Muhammad’ everything was Bel’am.’ “(see Tebari, Cami’ul-Beyan,14/119)
Or it was Yaiş who was laid stress on. What said for Bel’am was said for Yaiş. “Yaiş was making teachering for Muhammad.” was said. (see, the same source).
Or the slave who made teachering Muhammad was Cebr.(see, the same source)
Or Yemeni CEBR, YESSAR, ADDAS.
“Hadramis had two young slaves. One of this Yemeni slave’s name was Yessar and the other’s was Cebr.” narrated like that. Testimonies of the owners of these two slaves is like that:
“We had two young slaves. They read their books in their own language. Prophet visited and listened to them. Just for this reason idolaters said that ‘ Muhammad learned from them…’ “(Tebari,14/119). In the quotation of Fahruddin Razi there is a 3th slave together with them: Huvaytıb’slave Addas. (see F.Razi,interpretation, 24/50)
It is seen that either Greek or Yemeni, viewpoints of slaves’ relationship between Muhammad are different:
Viewpoints and allegations of Muslims are different,and also idolaters’.
According to some of Muslims : there was a relationship of ‘teaching and learning’ between Muhammad and slaves but teacher was Muhammad, learners were slaves. According to idolaters the true is just the opposite of this. In other words, teacher was slaves. Muhammad was learning from them.
Also according to some Muslims relationship between them did not pass the ‘reading- listening’ relationship. Slaves read their holy books in their language, ‘Prophet’ only ‘listened’ to them.
This question stays unanswered against Muslims’ these allegations:
“ If he did not know their language, what was Muhammad constantly doing among them? And what was Muhammad’s benefit of listening if he did not know their language?
Shortly, Muslims’ allegations are not the kind of believable. Where is faiht from?
Muhammad’s own explanation to this subject is very illuminating :
“ Faith is Yemeni.”
This hadith is in hadith books that Buhari’s ‘e’s-Sahih’ is in and also these books are seen as the best ones. According to the hadith, ‘wisdom’ is also Yemeni. What is more: ‘canon law’ is also Yemeni.(see Buhari,e’s-Sahih, Kitabu’l-Meğazi/74;Tecrid, hadith no: 1362;Müslim, e’s-Sahih, Kitabu’l-Iman/81-91, hadith n:51-52. And other hadith books.)
This hadith,according to researches, is among the ‘mutevatır hadith (its origin is certainly from Muhammad, without wrong) that is on the highest step of strenth, and it is narrated from eleven people among Prophet’s friends.(see, Ebu'l-Feyz Muhammed, Lukatu'l-Lai'l-Mütenasire Fi Ahadisi'l-Mutevatıre, Beyrut,1985, p.42-43,hadith no:10).
Some interpreters work to show Yemeni here as ‘Mekka and Medina’ with some constrained interpretations.(see, Tecrid, 1362 numbered hadith,explanation of Kamil Miras). But, in some quotations of hadith Yemenis are talked about. In other word, Yemen here is Yemen that everyone knows in geography.
So, according to this hadith, with ‘faith’, ‘wisdom’ and ‘comprehension(fıkh) ( here fıkh shoul be used in its dictionary meaning)’ Islam is foreign origined, it is Yemeni’.
“ The one who teachs Muhammad is Iranian Selman or…” ( Selman Farisi )
Somes are in tought that the foreigner who is told about in Nahl Sura’s 103dh verse, is Iranian Selman.(see, Tebari, the same place).
It is known by everyperson that Selman who appears with his Muslim identification afterward and becomes famous among Muslims has a close relationship and cooperation with Muhammad. His being Muslim provides him many things. First, freedom, that is to say getting out of slavery. Later fame, esteem, and physical-moral benefits…
Or,the foreigner told is an ‘apocalypse book’ that before becomes Muslim,and later leaves Islam. There is someone that puts forward that.(see, Taberi,the same place). Happenings to ‘apocalypse book’:
The man becomes Muslim before. He is also in cooperation with Muhammad like Selman. But later something happens and he leaves Islam. And he makes an explanation:
“ I was teaching Muhammad and what I teached was written in Quran as apocalypse…”
Later, man died or killed. As for his corpse, somehow it never stayed in where it was buried. Muhammad’s men were broadcasting that:
“This event is the reflection of God’s wrath. The man angered God very much. Now situation is apparent. He was buried, but soil didn’t accept him, couldn’t accept, it was afraid of God. For this reason, soil shooted out the unbeliever. It sould be ‘held up as an example’…”
The man was buried but after a few days, in the morning it was seen the man was out of the grave. This happened a few times.( especially in mornings it is doubtful that the corpse is found out of the grave. Because it is a high possibility that Muhammad’s followers put out the corpse at nights by digging the grave. If the person who puts out the corpse is God and his aim is to give warning, why is he doing this at nights? Or night is a good environment to hide someone.
One of Muhannad’s friends Enes (son of Malik) very later would narrate the event:
“There was a man. From Neccaroğulları…He was christian, later became Muslim. He read Bakara and Ali Irman suras. He also wrote apocalypse for Prophet. Later, he became christian again and joined Christians escaping. He started to say that ‘ What I teach and write for him, Muhammad only knows this, he don’t know anything apart from this. “ (see, Buhari, e's-Sahih, Kitabu'l Menakıb/25,v.4,p.181-182;Tecrid, hadith no:1477)
According to Enes’ telling God got angry with the man, killed him breaking off his neck. Christians buried him. But looked in the morning, his corpse was in apparent. And without shroud. Christians told that ‘ Muhammad’s men undressed his shroud, and left him in apparent just like that.’ They buried the man again. This time more deeply. Next morning the same situation. Later the same talkings. Later again and more deeply burying. Later the same situation and comments. One more time and deeply burying. The same situation. Then they saw it would go on like that, they gave up to bury the man anymore.
There was a man saying what this man said, in other words, he said that ‘ what I told and wrote it became apocalypse’, and he left Islam telling that ‘Muhammad did not take apocalypse from God.’: Abdullah son of Sa’d son of Ebu Serh. But, event that was above did not happaen to him somehow. Decided his execution by Muhammad. But, he was foster of Caliph Osman. And with the mediation of Osman he was forgiven. Later, he even became Governer of Eigypt.(death, 656-657. See Islam Encyclopedia).
The answer in verse:
What degree satisfying is the answer given in verse to the ones saying that “the one who teaches Muhammad is not God, is a humankind…”?
The answer,as is also seen in meaning of the verse given above, is like that:
“The one who is said he teaches Muhammad is not Arab, is a foreigner. But Quran obviously is in Arabic. Then, it is impossible that the one said teaches Muhammad.“
However, a foreigner who knows Arabic can give some ‘informations’ Muhammad from ‘olds’ fable’, from ‘Tora’, ‘Bible’, and other ‘holy texts’. That is the put forward. Isn’t it possible that Muhammad presents informations that he takes in his own style by pouring them into Arabic molds. Moreover, even Muslim researhers write with examples that the Arabic that is qualified as‘openly Arabic’ in Quran keeps so many words from different language like ‘Hebrew’, ‘Greek’ , ‘Syriac’, ‘Coptic’… (see, Suyuti, el Itkan Fi Ulumi’l-Kur’an, Arabic, Eigypt,1978, 1/178-185)
Doesn’t being so many foreign words in Quran support the allegation that ‘a foreigner (or foreigners) teaches, gives information Muhammad.’
Or it is possible that one or many Arabs teach Muhammad apart from a foreigner or foreigners.
A source that is very important for Islam is ‘Müseyime’.
Museyime means peep of Muslim. Muslims said like that to look down on him, in addition chose to say ‘very liar’. This is a swearword of Muslims. It is seen that, his own name was ‘Muslim’. His carrying this name is very important. It takes us to the source of words ‘Islam’ and ‘muslim’.
To this person who is sweared and looked down on by Muslims like that was said ‘Compassionate’ ‘Compassionate of Yemame’(he is called as Compassionate from Yemame). In fact the man was famous. It is also very interesting.
Another interesting thing is these words that people from Mekka say for Muhammad:
“According to the information came to us, the one who teaches you (is not God) is that man in Yemame. The man called Rahman. We tell that by taking an oath for God, we don!t believe Rahman. “(see, Ibn Ishak, Siyer, vericifaiton and stall: Muhammed Hamidullah, Arabic, Konya, 1981, p.180, paragraph: 254)
Are people’s tellings in Mekka causeless?
Museylime, rather ‘Muslim’, for another saying ‘Rahman’ is from Hanifeoğulları Tribal of Yemame.
Interesting two names: ‘Muslim’, ‘Hanife’, ‘Rahman’. These names, especially when first two come together, become more interesting. In Quran Ibrahim who is introduced as the ‘name father’ of ‘ muslims’, of Islam believers (see, Hacc, verse:78), called as both ‘Hanif’ and ‘ Muslim’. (see,Bakara:135; Ali Imran:67,95; Nisa:125; En'am:161; Nahl:120,123.). Ibrahim is the prophet of Sabii Religion whose short meaning is ‘star worshipping’. This is the result that I reach by making researches from Islam sources. Also Muhammad is told as Sabii when he appears first (see, Buhari,e's-Sahih,Kitabu't Teyemmüm,/6,v.1,p.89). Sabii Religion’s language is also Syriac. ‘Islam’, ‘muslim’, ‘hanif’ and ‘Rahman’ come from this language just as ‘Allah’, ‘Quran’, Furkan’, ‘Book’, ‘angel’ and so many words (see,Aziz Günel,Turk Syrians History,Diyarbakır,1970,p.46-48;Suyuti el Itkan,1/180-184;Orientalist Arthur Jeffery,The Foreign Vocabulary of the Quran,Kahire,1938,p.12 and others). Again as the result that I reach from my researches: star worshipping, while it is institutionalizing as a religion that become source for Cristianity and Judaism under the name of ‘Sabii’, includes ‘Muslims’ and ‘ Hanifs’. Before there are ‘Muslims’, later ‘Hanifs’ branch emerges. Ibrahim was the Prophet of this branch. Here, ‘Muslim (Museylime)’ famous as ‘Rahman of Yamame’ and Muhammad who is obvious that he learned many things from him, bounded to this branch. (for wide information about Sabii Religion, see, Eren Kutsuz-Turan Dursun, 'Saçak Magazine', February 1988, volume: 49.)
Rahman of Yemame can be only one of the sources that Muhammad benefits.
Ones mentioned above and others, one by one or all together, can be ‘teachers’ of Muhammad. According to 4th verse of Furkan Suras, Muhammad’s helpers, in other saying his teachers, are called as ‘ethnos’ in other saying ‘crowd’. This and other verses’ meaning that follows it is like that: (formal translation of Religious)
“Deniers made up a baseless telling saying that ‘This Quran is the fabrication of Muhammad. Another crowd helped him’ They said that ‘Quran is the fable of formers. Others wrote it and read it to him all the time.’ O Muhammad, say that: ‘recognizant of earths and skies’ secret brought down ‘it’. Without a doubt, he is the forgiver, pitier’ “(Furkan, verse :4-6)
According to this: people that say Quran is ‘fabrication’ also say these:
1)A crowd helps Muhammad,
2)Muhammad takes Quran verses from others and makes them written,
3)It is read Muhammad all the time,
4)‘Serves’ consists of ‘olds’ fables’.
Against to this the answer of Quran is that:
“ Lie and unfair claim. God brought down serves of Quran. He knows the secret of earths and skies.” Son of Hars Nadr had gone to warn people in Mekka when Muhammad started to introduce himself as ‘God’s prophet’, in other saying as one who took place between God and people, undertook to deliver God’s messages to people. And he said that:
“Never believe this man. All things he put forward saying they are from God are old fables. I can tell you more beatiful than his.” Nadr is telling he can narrate examples from Iran Fables belong to Iranian Kings, Iranian tale heroes.(see, Taberi, Camin’l-Beyan, 18/137-138)
Is Nadr right? Are there something from olds’ fables in Quran?
As it is known, there are a lot of story called ‘kıssa’. Many of them, firstly in Tora, in Hebrew sources, somes take place in Bible. It ıs seen when examined, some of them took place as the same in fables of ages that is also before Tora.for exampe, fable about ‘the Deluge’ is almost the same in Gilgamesh Legend. Also another examples can be given.
There are believers of different religions and beliefs around and in Mekka and Medina. People who knew different crowds’ ‘fables’ and ‘holy writings’ were not little. It is known there are some slaves that have these features and that Muhammad promise their freedoms and make cooperation with. Bel'am, Yaiş, Yessar, Addas, Cebr and Iranian Selman whose names toook place before are some of them.
To think that they or some others help, make teachering Muhammad to form Quran is not far fromintelligence. Thing that intelligence and logic can’t accept is ‘ God’s sending messages to people ‘ and for this choosing this or that person as a mediator. Only faith that has no concern with intelligence accept this, not human intelligence.
gozeneli
04-07-2008, 15:14
Yukardaki çeviriye büyük çalışmalar verilmiş.Kusura bakmayin ama yukardaki çeviriyi bir İngiliz zor anlar. 20 yıl İngilizce konuşuyorum ,bende İngiliz olan hanımımda anlamadık.
Türkçe gibi okundugunda bir anlam çıkıyor.
Örnegin ''Yaiş was making teachering for Muhammad''.
Burda ne denmek isteniyor. Eger uygun görürseniz salı günene kadar yetiştirmem gereken önemli bir çalışmam var.O günden sonra birde ben tuzumu bu çorbaya katarım.
saygılarımla
tam olarak sorun nerede sevgili gozeneli?? açıklayabilirmisin?? çeviriyi gönderdiğim kişler anladılar bu yüzden ekledim sizinde görüşlerinize elbet açığım bu doğrultuda gerekli düzenlemeler yapılır.. yaiş muhammede öğretmenlik yapardı anlamında bu cümle sorun nedir??
gozeneli
04-07-2008, 16:49
Sayın Kızılordu,
Teachering diye bir sözcük ben hiç duymadım.Sonra iki ''ing'' eki olan sözcük bir arada.
Acaba ''teaching' mi demek istediniz.Sonra yapardı diyorsanız ''making'' past tense olmalı yani ''was''.
Bazı yerlerde definitiv ve indefinitiv articles yani ''a yada an'' ve ''the'' eksik ama ben kısaca bir göz atmıştım.
Biliyorum bir çevirinin ne kadar zor ve zaman alıcı oldugunu.
Eger sizce bir engeli yoksa salı günü bir göz atarım ve ben bu konuda görüşlerimi belirtirim.
Sevgi ve saygılarımla
mütercim tercüman değilim sevgili gozeneli bu çeviri 4 gün içinde yapılmıştır şehir dışına çıkacağım için acele ile yaptım bir 4. sınıf ingilizce öğretmenliği birde 2. sınıf ingilizce öğretmenliği arkadaşıma yolladım ok dediler bazı hatalar olması mümkün ancak çeviri arapçadan olduğu için zaten kelimelerde felan da sorun yaşadım herneyse tabiki bence gözden geçirmenizde sorun yok önemli olan burda verdiğimiz mücadelenin gelişmesi..
şimdiden kolay gelsin
Degerli arkadaslar,
Bu aralar bazi sorunlardan dolayi, siteye ender girebiliyorum. konulara fazla konsantre olamiyorum. Kizilordu'ya verdigi emek ve hemen ise koyuldugu icin tesekkuru bir borc bilirim.
Yanlislar, hele bu acayip agdali lisani tercume ederken muhakkak olacaktir, ancak, kelimesi kelimesine degil de, ingilizce okuyana mana ifade edebilecek kelimeleri secmek gerekiyor ceviriyi yaparken. Hicbirimiz profesyonel tercuman olmadigimizdan, birbirimize elimizden geldigi kadar yardim etmeli, sonucta ortaya cikacak cevirininin anlasilir olmasina dikkat etmeliyiz.
Daha onceki tercumeleri de kontroldan geciriyorduk, sevgili gozenelinin duzeltmelerini bekliyelim, daha sonra tartisiriz eger gerekirse.
Hepinize sevgiler....
SATANIC VERSES
Have ye thought upon al-Lat and al-Uzza
And Manat, the third, the other? (53:19,20)
These are the exalted cranes (intermediaries)
Whose intercession is to be hoped for.
Muhammad
http://www.answering-islam.org/Hahn/satanicverses.htm
According to the records, the famous words known as “Satanic Verses” were once included in the Quran as a part of the book and since the goddesses called “al-Lat, al-Uzza, and Manat” were blessed in these verses, idolaters joined the prayers together with Muhammad and his followers. This issue should be discussed calmly for the integrity of science. No need to worry or get overexcited. If there is a fact in front of us –and there really is a fact-, it’s doesn’t make sense to say, “No there is no such a thing.”
Some controverts have acted in the way Khomeini stated in his murder soliciting fatwa and attacked over and over
Now, let's have a look at the facts mentioned with the evidence:
1-Verses which are said to mention and tell about the case of "the Satanic Verses":
a) The 52nd verse of Hajj Surah and the following verses.
In the 52nd verse, it is told that Satan embeds some words in what every prophet recites, but God sets them null and void and sets his own verses valid and firm. As it seems, the expression is inline with statements supporting the verses known as “Satanic Verses”, placed in the Quran by Satan, and taken out by God through Gabriel. Besides, that's why interpreters see these verses as the reflector of this event. They find similar expressions of this event in the other verses of Hajj Surah following the 52nd.
b) The 73rd and 75th verses of Israa Surah:
The meanings of these verses are as follows:
"And they indeed strove hard to beguile thee (Muhammad) away from that wherewith We have inspired thee, that thou shouldst invent other than it against Us; and then would they have accepted thee as a friend. Then had we made thee taste a double (punishment) of living and a double (punishment) of dying, then hadst thou found no helper against Us."
2-Hadiths (which are said to mention and tell about the case of "the Satanic Verses"):
Hadith 1: “The Prophet prostrated himself in worship while reciting Al-Najm Surah, and except for one old man who took some earth from the ground and touched it to his forehead, both the Muslims and the idolaters prostrated themselves in worship. (Ref.:Bukhari (hadith #:555), Tirmizi and other books of hadith and Muslim canonical jurisprudence.)
QUESTIONS:
1-How did Muhammad and idolaters who were featured as his sworn enemies got together?
2-How did idolaters prayed together with Muhammad?
To be able to find the answers to these questions, following two hadiths should be well studied.
Haidth 2: "The Prophet was reading Al-Najm Surah in Mekka, when he came to the part,
“Have ye thought upon al-Lat and al-Uzza
And Manat, the third, the other??"
Satan delivered the following words to the Prophet's tongue.
"Here, they are glorious cranes. Certainly their intercession is expected."
Hereupon the idolaters said, "Muhammad, never before, but today mentioned our goddesses using nice words!"
Yet, again the Prophet prostrated and they also prostrated. Here, for this reason, God revealed the following verse:
"Never did We send a messenger or a prophet before thee, but, when he framed a desire, Satan threw some (vanity) into his desire, but Allah will cancel anything (vain) that Satan throws in, and Allah will confirm (and establish) His Signs: for Allah is full of Knowledge and Wisdom:" (Al-Hajj Surah, verse:52) (Narrators are the prophets friends: a group which includes Abdullah Ibn Abbas. (Source: Suyuti Ibn Hacar)
And it can clearly be seen that:
The reason why idolaters prayed together with the prophet is: "The prophet's mentioning these three idols (al-Lat, al-Uzza, and Manat) with blessing words and his reciting the words as verses." The verses composed of these words are not God’s but "Satan’s verses". These verses were pulled out of the surah later. This is what is told in the 52nd verse of Hajj surah.
No need to say much about this issue. The greatest masters of Islam, Suyuti and Ibn Hacar accepted this hadith as reliable and true. Both Suyuti and Ibn Hacar are trusted by their judgements when it comes to differentiate which hadith is true and which is false in the world of Islam.
In brief:
1.The event of "Satanic Verses" is a fact. Any efforts to ignore this event will be in vain.
2.It would be much beneficiary if The Presidency of Religious Affairs of The Republic of Turkey to stop ignoring this event supported by reliable hadiths which are accepted by the highest Islamic authorities instead of putting some efforts to condemn religious terror which is not useful to anyone in this country because even though it is the fact, calling this event like "slander" or "fabrication of infidels", is nothing more than opening a door to murder soliciting fatwas.
Turan Dursun
ADMIN's note: It's important to realize that the time when al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat were blessed by Mohammad was a time when Islam had not spread yet, and Mohammad was being made fun of in Mekka. Consequently, he was lonely and stressed. Loneliness and heavy stress explain the huge gaffe of Mohammad’s blessing the goddesses. Later he regrets and tries to justify the bad situation by saying, "Satan has made me say these".
__________________
gozeneli
08-07-2008, 13:58
Kızılordu'nun çevirisini yaptıgı metinin Türkçesine bakabilirmiyim.
Anlamının degiştirmek istemiyorum.
Sayın Gözeneli hepsi anasayfada var
Muhammedin öğretmenleri
http://www.turandursun.com/index.php?categoryid=14&p2001_articleid=14
milomanara
08-07-2008, 17:51
Şeytan ayetleri üzerinde çalışan arkadaş varmış, kimsenin haberi yok muydu? Boşuna mı uğraştım?
sevgili milomanara, biraz iletisim sikintisi cekiyoruz, ceviri senin cevirin, asinar sadece duzeltmeleri yapan arkadas. bundan onceki cevirilere bakrasan hep asinar'in duzeltmelerinden gectigini gorursun. En son sekline karar verince ana sayfaya asiyoruz.
Kabahat biraz bende, her ikimiz de , asinar ve ben sik giremiyoruz siteye bu siralar, communication problemleri oluyor bundan dolayi.. Daha onceden belirtmedigim icin ozur dilerim, saygilarimla..
Sevgili milomanara,
Emeğin boşa gitmedi, merak etme. Ben sadece senin çevirinde (haddim olmayarak - belki de olarak) bazı düzeltmeler yapma gereği duydum. Her iki metni karşılaştırmanı ve itiraz ettiğin yerler olursa bildirmeni dilerim. Böylece en güzel çeviriyi yapmış oluruz.
milomanara
09-07-2008, 11:24
Sevgili asinar, sevgili vartor,
Süreci bilmediğimden şaşırdım biraz. Zaten asinar'ın çevrisi çok tanıdık gelmişti:) Düzeltmeler gayet yerinde.
gozeneli
11-07-2008, 00:02
Muhamed'in ögrtemenleri adlı çeviriyi nerdeyse bitirmek üzereyim.Şu an biraz işlerim beklenmedik şekilde arttı.
Umarım yarın takdirinize sunarım.
Saygılarımla
milomanara
11-07-2008, 18:59
Merhaba,
İslam ve şiddet için bende ön gördüğüm zamanı artırmak zorundayım. Hali hazırda geldiğim yer http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=ddqbjr7c_27v7498hb bağlantısından takip edilebilir.
gozeneli
14-07-2008, 22:21
Bu çeviri beni biraz zorladı. Türkçe'sine sadık kalmak için ugraştım ama Türkçeside biraz zorlattı beni umarım takdirinizi alır.
Who were the teachers of Prophet Muhammad?
Were the following people Bel'am, Yaiş, Addas, Yessar, Cebr, Selman of Iran Muhammad’s teachers?
What does the Quran says about this?
The” God” in the Quran explains this with the customary oath:
“We say on oath, we know they (unbelievers) say that someone certainly instructed him (Muhammad).The person who they say was teaching Muhammad was speaking different language. But this (The Quran) is obviously in Arabic. “(Nahl, verse: 103)
In the following Verses the unbelievers have been threatened and, defined as ‘liars, slanderers’ The Quran declares that their punishment will be torturous.
Some people claim Muhammad’s teacher was a Greek slave named as Bel'am.
Muhammad’s cousin Ibn Abbas tells:
“The Prophet was teaching a slave in Mecca. The slave was a foreigner. He was worshiping idols. His name was Bel’am. When they entered or exit the building to see Muhammad they saw idolaters. The one who thought Muhammad everything was Bel’am.’ “(See Tebari, Cami’ul-Beyan, 14/119).
Some sources indicated that other slaves named Yaish or Cebr could have been teaching Mohammad too.
It is also possible the teachers of Muhammad could have been CEBR, YESSAR, and ADDAS they all were from Yemen.
A wealthy man called Hadramis had two young slaves. One was a slave Yessar and the other one was Cebr, both slaves were from Yemen. The testimony of the owner of those two slaves is as follows:
“We had two young slaves. They read their books in their own language. Prophet Muhammad visited and listened to them. Just for this reason idolaters said that ‘Muhammad learned from them…’ “(Tebari, 14/119).
In the quotation from Fahruddin Razi there is a 3rd slave: Huvaytıb’s slave Addas. (See F.Razi, interpretation, 24/50)
It is noticeable that the Greek or Yemeni, viewpoints of slaves’ relationship with Muhammad was different to the Moslems.
The viewpoints of Moslems regarding this relationship are some what different, then the Greek and Yemeni viewpoint.
According to some of Muslims: there was a relationship of ‘teaching and learning’ between Muhammad and slaves but teacher was Muhammad, learners were slaves. According to idolaters the truth was just the opposite. In other words, the teachers were slaves. Muhammad was learning from the slaves.
Also according to some Muslims the relationship between Muhammad and the slaves did not pass the ‘reading- listening’ relationship. Slaves read their holy books in their own language, Prophet only listened to them.
However some Muslims can not answer the following questions:
“If Muhammad did not know their language, what was Muhammad constantly doing amongst them? And how did Muhammad benefit from listening to the slaves if he did not know their language?
In short, the defence Muslims put forward is unbelievable. From where did the Muslim faith come?
Muhammad’s own explanation to this subject is very illuminating:
“The Moslem faith is from Yemen.”
This hadith (Sayings attributed to Muhammad) is in the book of Hadiths that has the contribution of Buhari’s ‘e’s-Sahih’ has been accepted as the most authoritative. According to the hadith, ‘wisdom’ was also from Yemen. What is more: ‘canon law’ was also from Yemen. (See Buhari, e’s-Sahih, Kitabu’l-Meğazi/74; Tecrid, hadith no: 1362; Muslim, e’s-Sahih, Kitabu’l-Iman/81-91, the hadith n: 51-52. And other hadith books.)
This hadith, according to researches, is amongst the ‘mutevatır hadith (it is quoted from Muhammad,) it is from the most reliable sources, and it is narrated from eleven people amongst Prophet’s friends. (See, Ebu'l-Feyz Muhammad, Lukatu'l-Lai'l-Mütenasire Fi Ahadisi'l-Mutevatıre, Beirut, 1985, p.42-43, hadith no: 10).
Some commentators try to show Yemen here as ‘Mecca and Medina’ with some far fetch interpretations. (See, Tecrid, 1362 numbered hadith, explanation of Kamil Miras). But, in some quotations of hadith it is clear the Yemen talked about is Yemen in geographic sense.
So, according to this hadith, with ‘faith’, ‘wisdom’ and ‘comprehension (fıkh) (here fıkh should be used in its dictionary meaning)’ Islam has originated from Yemen, so it was foreign to Arabs.
“The one who taught Muhammad was an Iranian called Selman or…” (Selman Farisi)
Some agree that the foreigner who taught Muhammad was the one, who was mentioned in Nahl Sura’s 103dh verse, is Iranian Selman. (See, Tebari, the same place).
It is known by everyone that Selman later identifies himself as a Muslim and becomes famous among Muslims, has a close relationship and cooperation with Muhammad. Being a Muslim provides him with many benefits. First, freedom, that is to say getting out of slavery. Later fame, esteem, and physical-moral benefits…
In contrast, the foreigner who has been mentioned here who taught Muhammad becomes first Moslem but later distances himself from Islam was his secretary (he wrote down things for Mohammad because Mohammad was illiterate). The slave wrote all the so called revelations down for Mohammad (see, Taberi, the same place).
This slave becomes first Moslem. He also co-operates with Muhammad like Selman. But later something happens and he denounces Islam and he explains it:
“I was teaching Muhammad and what ever I taught him was written later in the Quran as revelations…”
Shortly afterwards the man either died or was killed. As for his corpse, somehow it never stayed where it was buried. Muhammad’s men were spreading rumours that:
“This event is the reflection of God’s wrath. The man angered God very much. Now situation is apparent. He was buried, but soil didn’t accept him, couldn’t accept, it. The soil was afraid of God. For this reason, soil has rejected the unbeliever. This should be ‘held up as an example’ to others…”
The man was buried but after a few days, in the morning it was seen the man was out of the grave. This happened a few times. (Especially in mornings it is doubtful that the corpse is found out of the grave. Because it is a high possibility that Muhammad’s followers put out the corpse at nights by digging the grave. If the person who puts out the corpse is God and his aim is to give warning, why is he doing this at nights?
One of Muhammad’s friends Enes (son of Malik) very later would narrate the event:
“There was a man. From the House of Neccar…He was a Christian, later became Muslim. He read Bakara and Ali Irman suras. He also wrote revelations for Prophet. Later, he converted back to Christianity. He started to say that ‘Muhammad only knows what I taught him. He does not know anything else. (See, Buhari, e's-Sahih, Kitabu'l Menakıb/25,v.4,p.181-182;Tecrid, hadith no: 1477)
According to Enes the God got angry with the man, killed him by breaking his neck. Christians buried him. But looked in the morning, his corpse was outside the grave. And the corpse was without shroud. Christians said that ‘Muhammad’s men took off his shroud, and left him just like that.’ They buried the man again. This time they buried the corpse very deep. Next morning the same situation. Later again and the Christians buried him even deeper. Later the same situation. Then they saw it would go on like that, they gave up burying the corpse.
However there was another man who said similar things like the man from the House of Naccar he was Abdullah son of SA’d son of Ebu Serh. But, he did not experienced same faith as the man from the House of Naccar. Although his execution was decided by Muhammad. With the mediation of Osman he was forgiven. Later, he even became Governor of Egypt. (Death, 656-657. See Islam Encyclopaedia).
The Quran’s explanation about Muhammad `s so called revelations coming from divine force rather then from humans is not satisfactory.”?
The Quran`s justification is that the Quran was written in Arabic but the mentioned people who supposed to be teaching Muhammad could not have taught Muhammad.
However, a foreigner who knows Arabic can give some information to Muhammad from ‘olds’ fables’, from the Torah, the Bible, and other ‘holy texts’. This is what has been put forward.
Isn’t it possible that Muhammad presented the information’s that he has taken from other in his own style by pouring them into Arabic moulds.
Moreover, even Moslem researchers write with examples that the obviously Arabic Quran has barrowed many words from different language like ‘Hebrew’, ‘Greek’, ‘Syrian’, ‘Coptic’… (See, Suyuti, el Itkan Fi Ulumi’l-Kur’an, Arabic, Egypt, 1978, 1/178-185)
There are so many foreign words in the Quran, doesn’t this support the allegation that ‘a foreign (or foreigners) teacher, gave information to Muhammad.
Or it is possible that one or more Arabs did teach Muhammad as well as some foreigners.
One source that is very important for Islam was a man called ‘Museyime’.
Museyime was a disparaging name. In addition Moslems called Museyime ‘a big liar’. This is a swear word for a Moslem. It is believed that, his name was ‘Moslem’. It is very important to notice his name was the source of words ‘Islam’ and ‘Moslem’.
It is claimed that this person has received insults and looked down at by Muslims. He was ‘Compassionate’ He was called ‘The Compassionate of Yemame’. In fact the man was famous. This is also very interesting.
Another interesting thing is these words that people from Mecca say to Muhammad:
“According to the information came to us, the one who teaches you (is not the God) is that man in Yemame. The man called Rahman. We tell you this under oath to God, we don’t believe Rahman. “(see, Ibn Ishak, Siyer, verification and stall: Muhammad Hamidullah, Arabic, Konya, 1981, p.180, paragraph: 254).
Is there a ground for people of Mecca to say this?
Museylime, correct name ‘Muslim ’, or with his other name ‘Rahman’ was from The House of Hanife which belongs to Yemame tribe.
Interesting three names: ‘Muslim’, ‘Hanife’, ‘Rahman’. These names, especially when first two come together, become more interesting.
In the Quran Abraham who was introduced as the ‘names father’ for the ‘Muslims’, (See, Hacc, verse: 78), was called as both ‘Hanif’ and ‘Muslim’. (See, Bakara: 135; Ali Imran: 67, 95; Nisa: 125; En'am:161; Nahl: 120,123.). Abraham is the prophet of Sabii Religion whose short meaning is ‘star worshipping’. This is the conclusion that I reach by researches from the Islam sources. Also Muhammad was a Sabii when he appeared first (see, Buhari, e’s-Sahih, Kitabu’t Teyemmüm, /6, v.1, p.89). Sabii Religion’s language is also Syrian. ‘Islam’, ‘Muslim’, ‘Hanif’ and ‘Rahman’ comes from this language just as ‘Allah’, ‘Quran’, Furkan’, ‘Book’, ‘angel’ and so many other words (See,Aziz Günel,Turk Syrians History,Diyarbakır,1970,p.46-48;Suyuti el Itkan,1/180-184;Orientalist Arthur Jeffery, The Foreign Vocabulary of the Quran,Kahire,1938,p.12 and others).
Again from my researches I have concluded: “Star Worshipping”, while it has become an institution like a religion, it has become later source for Christianity and Judaism, und to Muslims. Muslim (Museylime) famous as ‘Rahman of Yamame’ and Muhammad who has obviously learned many things from him, was part to this teaching. (for further information about Sabii Religion, see, Eren Kutsuz-Turan Dursun, 'Saçak Magazine', February 1988, volume: 49.)
Rahman of Yemame can be only one of the sources that Muhammad has benefited from.
All the mentioned above and others, or just one or all together, could be ‘teachers’ of Muhammad. According to 4th verse of Furkan Suras, Muhammad’s helpers, in other words his teachers, were described as ‘a tribe’ in other words ‘a group of people’. This and other verses’ are claiming this too.
(Official translation of the Quran by the religious authority):
“Deniers claim ‘this Quran is the fabrication of Muhammad. Group of people has helped him’ they said that ‘The Quran is full of fables from the past. Others wrote it and read it to him all the time.’ O Muhammad, say that: ‘The Quran has come from the one who knows the secrets of the earth and sky’. Without a doubt, he is the forgiver’ “(Furkan, verse: 4-6).
According to this: people that say the Quran is ‘fabrication’ also say those:
1)A group of people has helped Muhammad,
2)Muhammad has taken Quran verses from others and has written them down,
3)The verses were read to Muhammad day and night,
4)‘The verses’ consists of ‘olds’ fables’.
Against to this the Quran says this:
“Those are lies and unfair claims. The God brought down verses of the Quran. He knows the secret of the earth and the sky.” Son of Hars Nadr had gone to warn people in Mecca when Muhammad started to introduce himself as ‘God’s prophet’, in other words Muhammad took the place between the God and people, and he undertook to deliver God’s messages to people. And he said that:
“Never believe this man. All things he put forward and has claimed they are from God are old fables. I can tell you more sweat things than he can.” Nadr illustrates stories from Iranian Fables which belongs to Iranian Kings and Iranian fable heroes. (See, Taberi, Camin’l-Beyan, 18/137-138)
Is Nadr right?
Is there something from olds fables in the Quran?
As it is known, there are a lot of stories called ‘kıssa’. Many of them, firstly in the Torah, in Hebrew and, some took place in the Bible. When examined, some of those stories are the same as in the fables of the time before the Torah. For example, the fable about ‘the Deluge’ is almost the same in the Gilgamesh Legend. There are many more examples.
There were at the time of Muhammad many believers of different religions in Mecca and Medina. This people who knew old fables and ‘holy writings’ were not in short supply. It is known there are some slaves that have this knowledge and that Muhammad promise their freedoms and has work with them namely with Bel'am, Yaiş, Yessar, Addas, Cebr and Iranian Selman whose names have mentioned in this article...
To think that they or some others helped Muhammad to write the Quran is not far from intelligence. Intelligence and logic can’t accept that ‘a God is
Sevgili gözeneli,
Ellerine ve beynine sağlık. Emeğin için teşekkürler. Çevirinde - izninle - bazı düzeltmeler yapacağım. Örneğin,
"What does the Quran says about this?" soru cümlesindeki fiilin sonunda "s" takısı olmaması gerekir. Ayrıca,
"The one who thought Muhammad everything was Bel’am.’ cümlesinde "teach" fiilinin geçmiş zaman hali "thought" değil "taught" olmalı.
Düzeltmeleri yaptıktan sonra sen de bir göz gezdir. Uygun bulmadığın yerleri tartışalım ve son halini asalım.
Esen kal.
asinar
gozeneli
23-07-2008, 22:51
Sayın Asinar,
hakklısınız yaptıgınız düzeltmeler mantıklı.
esen kalın
milomanara
23-07-2008, 22:52
Selam,
Son günlerde geç saatlere kadar çalışıyorum. Kalan bir kaç saatimde de gerzek diziler seyrediyorum. Çeviriye fırsat bulur bulmaz devam edeceğim. Bu arada başka el atmak isteyen olursa çekinmesin:)
Sevgiler,
Elinize emeğinize sağlık,sayın Gözeneli ve Asinar
Teşekkürler aydoe.
Sevgili arkadaşlar,
İngilizce'ye çevrilen makalelerde dikkatimi çeken bir nokta var; konu başlıklarında bile peygamberin adı üç değişik biçimde yazılmış: 1. Muhammad, 2. Muhammed, 3. Mohammed. Bunun böyle olması normal midir, yoksa tek bir yazılış biçiminde mi karar kılmalıyız? Elimde peygamberin hayatı ile ilgili bir İngilizce kitap var. O kitapta da MOHAMMED yazıyor. Bence birisinde karar kılıp hepsini aynı yazalım. Bu konuda araştırma yapıp düşüncelerinizi aktarırsanız sevinirim.
gozeneli
24-07-2008, 21:47
Sayın Asinar,
Herhalde Muhammad daha uygun olur. BBC böyle yazdıgına göre, biz kimiz tersini iddia edecek?
Sevgili grup üyeleri
Biten tercümeleri, kontrol edildikten sonra asılmaya hazır tercümeler gibi bir başlık altında toplarsanız biz de ana sayfaya bunları yerleştirebiliriz.
Aşinar bu iş size düşüyor herhalde. Bir de ingilizce ana sayfayı da kontrol ederek bitip de asılmayana tercümeler konusunda haberdar ederseniz en azında emekler sergilenmiş olur.
saygılarımla
Tamamdır sevgili gözeneli. Bir de "Moslem" mi "Muslim" mi ona karar verelim. Çevirinde her ikisini de kullanmışsın.
Sevgili dilaver, en son denetimden geçirdiğim makaleleri uygun bir başlık altında toplayacağım. Ana sayfanın kontrolünü de yaparım ama biraz zaman alacaktır. Malum ya yapılacak başka işler de var. Elimden geldiğince fazla zaman ayıracağımdan emin olabilirsiniz.
Esen kalın.
gozeneli
25-07-2008, 19:05
Bu konudada isterseniz sayın Asinar Oxford Dictionary'ı dinleyelim ve uygun görüyorsanız bundan sonra Muhammad ve Muslim terimlerini kullanalım.
Saygılarımla
Herkese selamlar, muhammed'in cinsel hayatı-2, 4000 kelime dolayında bir metin. Ayın yirmisi gibi bitirmiş olurum. Uygunsa ben alabilirim.
Okuyacak olanların karakter kodlaması sorunu yaşamaması için tercüme metinlerde geçen özel isimlerde Türkçe karakter basmamak daha doğru olur diye düşünüyorum. Ben Mozilla Firefox kullanıyorum ve bu durumu en azından Mozilla kullanıcılarının yaşayacağını öngörebiliriz. Yukarıdaki "Creation From Mud" makalesinde "Mü'minün" ve "Sıtkı" bu anlamda en sık tekrarlananlar.
Sevgiler,
Hakan
Hakanp aldınız bile iyi çalışmalar.
Arkadaşlar her halde bir tek zerdüşt metni kaldı, onu da biri üstlenirse en azından ana sayfanın makaleler bölümü bitmiş olacak.
saygılarımla
tamamdır. çeviriye başladım. Tabii hemen soracak bir şey çıktı!
Buhari'nin ve Müslim'in Sahih'lerinin ingilizcelerini indirdim. fakat kitap, bölüm ve sıra numarasını takip edip hadislere ulaşamıyorum. Halbuki çok basit gibi görünüyor! Birden fazla kodlama türü mü var? Ya da İngilizler başka, Türkler başka, Araplar başka mı kodluyorlar? Mesela Turan Bey'in yazısında aşağıdaki şekilde kodladığı bir hadisin ingilizcesini bulmak istiyorsam nelere dikkat etmeliyim?
Sahih Buhari, Kitabul-Itk/13, hadis no:1596
Sahih Müslim, Kitabun-Nikah/127, hadis no:1438
Teşekkürler,
Hakan
Maalesef hadis kitaplarında ve sitelerinde bu ciddi bir sorun hakanp. Numaralar ile arandığında her sitede farklı hadislere karşılaşılıyor. Geriye tek çözüm kalıyor örneğin Nikah başlığında o hadisi arayarak bulmak :confused:
muhammet'in cinsel hayatı-2'nin çevirisi bitti. Cumartesi günü Türkçe bilen İngiliz bir çevirmen arkadaşım okumasını yapacak. ondan geri dönüş hızına göre pazar ya da pazartesi buraya asmış olurum.
sevgiler
sırada kalan bir çeviri daha var. Zerdüştlük kısmına da üstlenecek bir babayigit yok mu. Ön teşekkürler hakan.
saygılarımla
Eğer bir haftaya falan müşterisi çıkmazsa, elimin tekrar boşalacağı 30-31 Ağustos gibi ben alabilirim. haberleşiriz.
MUHAMMAD'S SEXUAL LIFE-2
Muhammad allows captive women to be raped
Muhammad gets caught with Hafsah in Maryah’s bed
Muhammad’s Lust
The story of how Zainab became one of Muhammad’s wives
Muhammad and beautiful Safiyah
Safiyah’s kin get tortured to death
Muhammad reclaims Safiya from Dihya
Why Muhammad had so many wives
How much time Muhammad spent engaging in intercourse
Abdullah, son of Ibn Umar, says:
“The prophet had attacked Bani Mustaliq at night. They were heedless. Their cattle were being watered at the places of water. The prophet had their fighters killed and their children enslaved. And he got Juwairiyah for himself on that day. (see Bukhari, Kitabul-Itk/13; Tecrid, hadith no:1117. Muslim; Kitabul-Cihad/1, hadith no:1730; Abu Davud, Sunen, Kitabul-Cihad 100, hadith no:2633.)
Juwairiyah means “little jariyah [concubine]”. She was very young at that time, a 13-year-old. Although her name was “Barra”, after Muhammad took her, she was called by this name.
Year 627. Muhammad conducted a raid at night against Bani Mustaliq, a tribe living next to a well called al-Muraisi situated between Mecca and Medina. And he got what he wanted. Although according to the hadith above, “the prophet had their fighters killed”, there were only about ten fighters who were slain (for multiple sources on this: Leoni Caetani, The History of Islam, 1925.)
Loots and captives
And beautiful Juwairiyah, the daughter of the Bani Mustaliq’s chieftain Harith, was among the captives. Now she was a cariyah. In other words, a person who could be bought and sold. As Kamil Miras, the translator of Tecrid, put it, “when the captured slaves were being distributed, Juwairiyah fell to the lot of Thabit bin Qais.” (see the interpretation of hadith number 1117, Concise Sahih Bukhari, Clear Interpretation of Tecrit, Ankara, 1985, Religion Institute)
Nonetheless she was very beautiful. Moreover she was of noble blood.
Did she make use of this? The evidence is insufficient. However, all of a sudden, as stated in the hadith, we see that Muhammad takes her for himself. Paying her ransom, Muhammad takes her as one of his wives. Followed by “nuptial night”. And after that, an “acquittal” for everyone who was about to be “executed”. Muhammad Hamidullah puts it:
“…A few hours later, we see the enemy become one of Muhammed’s closest friends. (…) In the end everybody rejected and returned his share of the loot without hesitation. Upon this unexpected release of ALL TWO HUNDRED FAMILIES, the Banu Mustaliq quickly forgot the ten fighters they lost and they converted to Islam.” (see Professor Muhammad Hamidullah, The Prophet of Islam)
Is this not the right time to say: “O, sweet love (!), just look at the things you are capable of!”
Muhammad was 56 at the time. He lost no time in going to bed with beautiful, young Juwairiyah. In a leather tent put up next to the well, he finished his business.
Meanwhile one of his wives, Aisha, was there with him. Juwairiyah and Aisha were peers. And on the way back to Medina, the incident of Aisha’s necklace and Safvan followed it.
Did Aisha want to exact revenge from Muhammad? Was she jealous of Juwairiyah?
Just before the “ransoms” were paid and captives set free, something happened. It’s worth mentioning.
Muhammad allows captive women to be raped:
According to Abu Said al-Hudri’s testimony, there were “the most luscious women of Arabia among the captives.” (see Muslim, Sahih, Kitabu’n-Nikah/125, hadith no:1428). And the Muslims who conducted the raid lusted after these beautiful women. They wanted to sleep with them right away. Hadn’t the women they wanted to sleep with now become “jariyahs”? Therefore they were “halal”. Even though Muhammed is quoted saying: “For the one who has faith in Allah and Judgment Day, it is not halal to soak another person’s soil (a woman who has sexual intercourse with another man) with one’s own water (his own semen). He is also quoted saying: “For the one who has faith in Allah and Judgment Day, it is not halal to have sexual intercourse with a captivated woman before she gets clean from another person’s semen, which is called an “istibra” and according to fiqh scholars it needs one month to complete. (see Abu Davud, Kitabun-Nikah/45, hadith no:2158). But this is not the only contradiction…
Abu Said al-Hudri said:
“We went out with Allah’s prophet for the Ghawza of Bani Mustaliq. We received captives from among the Arab captives. We desired those women. And celibacy became hard on us. We wanted to make “azl”. But we thought “while he is present among us, how could we make azl without his permission?” So we went to ask him. And he advised us that there is no harm in us not making azl. (You can either make or not.) But know this, if up until Judgment Day, a baby is predestined to exist, by all means it will surely exist.” (see Bukhari, Sahih, Kitabul-Itk/13, Tecrid, hadith no:1596; Muslim, Sahih, Kitabun-Nikah/127, hadith no:1438; Abu Davud, Sunen, Kitabun-Nikah/49, hadith no:2170). Some doesn’t understand what exactly this hadith means for they don’t understand what “azl” means.
“Azl” is withdrawal of penis before ejaculation during intercourse. That is, to come outside of the female genitalia, a coitus interruptus. In short, what is told in this hadith:
Muslims wanted to have intercourse with “the captive women”. But there was a problem: What if the woman got pregnant? They didn’t want to have children by those women. Translator of Tecrit, Kamil Miras, explains this attitude as follows:
The reason why they wanted to have intercourse with these captive women in this way (ejaculating outside) is: Pregnant women or mothers could not be sold. However, the ghazis [Muslim warriors] were in need of money and wanted to sell them. (See, Religion Institute Publications, Tecrid, hadith number 1596, footnote:1)
To cut a long story short: “Ghazis” could rape these captivated women. But while doing this, they didn’t want to end up with a “child problem”. When necessary, they needed to be able sell these women easily. For this reason, they want to commit “azl” and consulted Muhammad. The prophet basically doesn’t have any objections to raping these women, he allows it. When it comes to azl, he indicates indirectly that there is no harm in doing it.
Muhammad gets caught with Hafsah in Maryah’s bed:
It was the day of Hafsah among the wives of Muhammad. That day Muhammad went to Hafsa’s house to sleep with her. He went in her chamber. But Hafsah wasn’t there. Just at that moment, Maryah came in. She was the one of cariyahs once given to him as a present by the Muquaqis [the ruler] of Alexandria. At that moment, Muhammad was very ready to have sex. He held Maryah and laid her down into Hafsah’s bed and started to do what he needed. It was natural for Muhammad to sleep with his cariyah. The Koran also allowed him to sleep with the cariyah along with his wives. (see Sura Ahzab, verses 50-52). It was all very usual up until this point. However, he was making love to a jariyah in the bed of a free woman (hurra), moreover this bed belonged to Hafsah, the daughter of Umar. This was not usual. As misfortune would have it, right at that moment Hafsah returned unexpectedly. She saw Muhammad having sex with Maryah (Mariyah). She stood at the door for a time controlling herself. After Muhammad finished, Hafsah, dismayed, told him:
“The prophet of Allah! You put me in an inferior position, you humiliated me. You never did what you did to me any of your wives. In my day, in my turn, in my bed you laid down a jariyah!”
And what does Muhammad say? Then, there is this dialogue between Hafsah and Muhammad:
“I swear in the name of Allah that I shall never see her again!”
“What if I would declare Maryah haraam for myself and stay away from her? Would that please you?”
“Yes!”
And Muhammad immediately takes an oath.
“Hafsah! But whatever you know about me and her, you must not tell anyone else. Alright?”
“Alright!”
However, Hafsah relays everything to Aisha (see, Taberi, Camiul-Beyan, 28/102)
According to the other relating, Hafsah catches Muhammad on Aisha’s day and Muhammad asks her not to tell anyone saying “I shall never see her again. And I have joyful tidings for you. After me, Abu Bakr and Umar will manage the affairs of umma [the community]. They will be caliphs.” But Hafsah tells the story to the Aisha. (see, F. Razi, 30/41,43)
After Muhammad takes an oath that Maryah is haraam for him from now on, i.e. he will never see her again, new verses are revealed:
“O Prophet! Why do you ban (for yourself) that which Allah has made lawful to you, seeking to please your wives? And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” (see Sura Tahrim, verse:1. See the identical tafsirs to find hadiths and interpretations on this verse explaining it came for the incident of Maryah)
There are several interpretations which relate a story of “honey sherbet” to explain the reason for the revelation of this and the subsequent four verses. But even Muhammad Ali Subini, who always tries to cover the shortcomings of Islam, argues in favor of the hadith explaining that these verses were revealed for the incident of Maryah (Mariya). (see Muhammad Ali Subuni, Safvetut Tefasir, 3/406-407).
The other Islamists, for the sake of Islam’s appearance, prefer to link these verses to the story of “honey sherbet” rather than “the incident of Maryah”. Undoubtedly, with forced arguments.
Muhammad kept on sleeping with Maryah. He had a son from her. Ibrahim. But he died after he was fairly grown up.
Muhammad’s Lust:
According to a hadith, wherever Muhammad sees an attractive and beautiful woman, he goes to home and sleeps with Zainab. And thus he quenches his desire.
Cabir, son of Abdullah told:
“The prophet saw a woman, he immediately went to Zainab. At that time Zainab was tanning a piece of leather. The prophet met his need right away. Then he joined his friends. And later he said:”
‘The woman advances and retires in the shape of Satan. Thus whenever one of you sees a woman, he should immediately come to his wife, for that (sexual intercourse) will quench what is inside of him (his desire).’ (see, Muslim, Sahih, Kitabun-Nikah/9-10, hadith no:1403; Abu Davud, Sunen, Kitabun-Nikah/44 hadith no:2151; Tirmizi, Sunnen, Kitab-Rida/9, hadith no:1158)
What is revealed in this hadith is:
Muhammad was always looking at the other women apart from his wives “lustfully”. And when an attractive woman caught his eye, he felt the urge to fulfill his desire. This is also established in some verses. For example, in Sura Ahzab, verse 52, while “his having wives getting limited”, it is said “even though their beauties (of other women) arouse your desire”. Gazali quoting the same verse elaborately describes the importance of “lust” and the benefits of having sex and getting relaxed. Meanwhile he illustrates Muhammad’s lust and how he meets his need. (See Gazali, Ihya-u Ulumiddin, 2/27-29)
For Muhammad, “woman” is a “lust-arouser” who always seduces man. Muhammad always sees women as a devil. (see “Seriat ve Kadin”[Sharia and Woman], an extremely valuable book by Prof. Ilhan Arsel, for comprehensive information with more examples on how Muhammad sees women in general and how he sees woman as a devil.)
Another conclusion is: according to Muhammad, a woman could never and must never reject her husband when he wants to have sex with her. There is a lot of hadith telling, advising and commanding this point. Let’s give two examples of them: “When a man calls his wife to bed (to have sex), if she refuses to sleep with him and causes him to sleep in anger, then the angels will curse to her till the morning.” (See, Bukhari, Sahih, Kitabu Bed’il’halk/7; Tecrid, Hadith no: 1337; Muslim, Sahih, Kitabun Nikah/120-122, hadith no:1436; Abu Davud, Sunen, Kitabun Nikah/42, hadith no: 2141) “When a man calls his wife to satisfy his desire, let hercome to him though at that moment she is occupied at the oven. (See, Tirmizi, Sunen, Kitabu-Rida/10, hadith no: 1160)
Let’s turn back to the original discussion: It is interesting that Muhammad goes to home and chooses Zainab to have sex with whenever an appealing woman catches his attraction.
The story of how Zainab became one of Muhammad’s wives:
Zainab Bint Jashsh was the wife of Zaid, Muhammad’s adopted son. As Muhammad adopted Zaid, everybody called him Muhammad’s son (Zaid Ibn Muhammad).
One day Muhammad visited Zaid’s home but he didn’t find Zaid there. And he met with his wife Zainab and suddenly fell for her. When Muhammad is interested with a woman, it is an inevitable result that the woman is not appropriate anymore for any other man (even he is her husband) and therefore she should belong to Muhammad. So when Zaid heard what happened, he went to Muhammad to talk to.
Zaid: “I want to leave my wife.”
Muhammad: “Why? Did she make anything suspicious?”
Zeyd: “By Allah’s name, no. There is nothing suspicious happened. I receive nothing but kindness from her.” (This proves that it is not a conflict why Zaid wants to divorce his wife as Muslims claim, it is Muhammad’s interest in her.)
Muhammad: “Then keep your wife and fear Allah!”
Muhammad was telling “keep your wife” but he actually wanted Zaid divorce Zainab. He wanted a divorce so that he could marry her.
But he was hiding his wish and his love.
Then Sura Ahzab verse 37 is revealed to Muhammad for this reason. (see Taberi, Camiul Beyan, 22/10-II) This relating is discussed widely in Tabakatu Ibn Sa’d but because orientalists keep criticizing it, those who seem to aim to preserve Islam’s appearances, call it a “slander” even at the cost of covering or distorting the truths, though this story has always been present in “hadith” and “tafsir” books throughout centuries. Now let’s look at the verse. The meaning of it is:
“Recall that you said to the one who was blessed by Allah, and blessed by you, "Keep your wife and fear Allah," and you hid inside yourself what Allah wished to proclaim. Thus, you feared the people, when you were supposed to fear only Allah. When Zaid was completely through with his wife, we had you marry her, in order to establish the precedent that a man may marry the divorced wife of his adopted son. Allah's commands shall be done.”
What is narrated in this verse is:
-While Muhammad was saying “Keep your wife”, he was hiding something inside himself. And later Allah was going to proclaim it. What was Muhammad hiding inside?
According to above story, there could be two answers to this question:
1-What Muhammad was hiding inside himself was his love for Zainab and Zaid to divorce her providing Muhammad an opportunity to marry her.
Those who call this story as “a slander and made-up” explain what Muhammad was hiding inside himself was only Zaiyab’s being divorced and Muhammad’s being able to marry her. But these are all interconnected. Because if Muhammad falls in love with Zainab, it is natural that he would like Zaid divorce her and himself to marry Zainab. Hiding his intention he was also hiding his love.
2-The reason why Muhammad was hiding inside himself was that he feared the people.
And what caused this fear or reluctance? I mean what did Muhammad think people would do when he proclaimed what he was hiding inside and for that he feared? They answer this question as follows: Muhammad feared people would gossip that he was trying to take the wife of his son. Because the tradition was not in favor of it. Marrying the wife of one’s adopted son was considered nasty. (see Muhammad Ali Sabuni, Safvetut Tefasir, 2/527-528 and other tafsirs). According to the story, there would be another response: Muhammad feared both people and Zaid. For coveting the wife of another man, moreover his adopted son… For this reason he hid it for a while. But later, “revelation of the verse” solved the problem.
3-The reason why Muhammad married Zaiyab who divorced from his adopted son was to open a door for everyone to this effect.
This is the justification in the verse. That is, for everyone to be able to marry easily with the divorced wife of his adopted son, Allah had Muhammad marry Zainab. After this explanation, another question arises:
Wouldn’t another solution be possible instead of this marriage? For example, a verse could reveal that doing this was halal from now on and there wouldn’t be any problem. Why wasn’t such a solution chosen? Why on earth was the marriage of Muhammad and Zainab needed? There is no answer to this. [A note from Admin: Mr Turhan Dursun ended the argument here. Let’s keep reading the rest of this story from Arif Tekin’s book “Kuran’in Kokeni” (The Origin of Koran) page 166:
“…Muhammad calls Zaid, explains this verse (Ahzab, 37) and then gives him a mission: ‘Go and tell these to Zainab and ask her hand for me. When Zaid arrives the door, he hesitates to enter and turning his head, he says (according to his own words), “in a sweat, feeling very miserable” that he is the envoy of Muhammad and he came to ask her hand for the prophet. Meanwhile she is occupied with some pastry. She listens to Zaid but doesn’t give an affirmative reply and says she needs to think about it retreating into her room to pray. When Zaid informs Muhammad with the discouraging news, Muhammad’s patience ends and directly going into Zainab’s home, seizes her. And the justification for his actions is the phrase in the newly revealed verse 37 of Sura Ahzab: “we had you marry her”. And on the basis of this verse, he neither pays her dower nor needs any witnesses nor asks permission from Zainab’s family. At that time Muhammad was 58 and Zainab was 35. Moreover he was married to the following women:
1.Aisha (12-years-old)
2.Hafsah (23-years-old)
3.Umm Salama (30-years-old)
And this is not the end of the story. Shortly after he marries Zainab in the year 6 AH, Muhammad sends Zaid to six skirmishes, one after the other. These are:
1. Bani Suleym, 2. Iys, 3. Taraf, 4. Hisma, 5. Vadil Kura, 6. Umm Kirfe
Zaid successfully returns from all these raids without being shot. Finally Muhammad sends Zaid to another one known as “Battle of Mutah” in the history of Islam. An army of 3000 Muslims engages Byzantine army of 100.000 men. And by the way, while there is a more skillful commander avaible: Khalid ibn Al-Walid. Zaid falls this time.]
Muhammad and beautiful Safiyah:
Year 628. According to the explanation of Kamil Miras, the translator of Tecrid published by Religion Institute, the hundreds of “the most excellent date palms in the region” which belong to Khaibar town situated in “a beautiful oasis” are chopped down on the orders of Muhammad. As it is the order of Allah. As always. Here is the verse:
“In the country of deniers from followers of the Book, whether you chop a palm-tree or leave it standing on its trunk is by Allah's command. He will surely humiliate the transgressors.” (Sura Hashr, verse:5) This verse is Muhammad’s answer to the criticism after he ordered to burn down the palms of Bani Nadir. (see Bukhari, Sahih, Kitabul Cihad / 154; Muslim, Sahih, Kitabul Cihad /10; hadith no:1746; Abu Davud, Sunen, Kitabul-Cihad/91 hadith no:2615)
Along with this palm tree massacre, there were also human massacres. Especially in Jewish settlements. One of those happened in Khaibar which was a fortress town having many forts. Approximately in six weeks, with the help of some traitors among Jews who had Muhammad’s word of assurance, these forts fell down one after the other and Muslims won. Koran’s Torah-borrowed God says he made “the children of Israel”, i.e. the Jews, “excel the nations.” (see Sura Bakarah, verse: 47, 122; Sura Araf, verse: 140) But he didn’t help the Jews in this case. Loots and captives… Among them, women and children… Cries and pain…
And meanwhile Safiyah got captured along with her relatives. A beauty among the most beautiful. But she was in pain and grief… Some of her kin had already been beheaded. Some were being tortured… Her father was among the beheaded. Her husband and her brother-in-law were being interrogated and tortured. They were doomed to soon be killed.
Safiyah’s kin get tortured to death:
“Possibly because Muhammad coveted beautiful Safiyah and wanted to get rid of her husband, he summoned Kinana/ Ibn Rabi / Ibn Abi-al Huqauaiq and ordered him to tell where the renowned treasures of Abi-al Huqauaiq tribe were.” After indicating this, Leoni Caetani relates some other information. According to this information, both Kinana and his brother didn’t reveal whereabouts of the treasures. However Muslims found some part of the treasure. But Mohammad had to have it all and he gave orders to torture them.
Kinana was Safiyah’s newly-wed husband. And his wife Safiyah would soon find herself in bed with Muhammad… Among the other information Caetani also relayed:
“Kinana was terribly tortured to uncover whether there was a hidden treasure somewhere. Zubayr Ibnul Awwam (one of ten persons rewarded with Heaven while still alive) personally applied Muhammad’s orders. When Zubayr was unable to have this poor man talk, HE PIERCED HIS CHEST WITH KINDLED WOOD until he was nearly dead. Then he gave him to Muhammad bin Maslama who beheaded him to take revenge his brother. And Kinana’s brother also passed through cruel tortures. (…) Once these two unfortunate Jews retired from the world, Muhammad summoned their women…” (see Leoni Caetani, The History of Islam, 1925, 5/123-124)
Caetani’s writings are also supported by some Islam sources. Nevertheless, how much of it is true or consists of truth, certainly it is impossible to be categorical. But it is also found in the most reliable sources of Islam that Safiyah lost her family during Battle of Khaiber. It is an outcome of it. Her father, her husband and her brother-in-law… (I recommend consulting “Seriat ve Kadin” [Sharia and Woman] by Prof Ilhan Arsel for extensive information and comparison). The relatives of Safiyah were murdered in the hands of Muslims. On the orders of Muhammad… And then the same Safiyah will be Muhammad’s woman and taken to his tent on the way back.
Muhammad reclaims Safiya from Dihya:
According to the hadiths:
After the battle, a young man named Diyha al-Kalbi came to Muhammad and asked permission to get one of the captivated women. And Muhammad replied, according to Kamil Miras, the translator of the hadith, “Come on, go now and get a cariyah!” Diyha went and chose Safiyah. Seeing this, an Arab ran to inform Muhammad. He said Safiyah was not an equal to Dihya but the prophet. And Muhammad summoned Dihya to tell to get “another jariyah”. “The jariyah” given to Dihya was the sister of Safiyah’s husband. In return to “her being a wife” to himself, Muhammad “manumitted” Safiyah. That is, her “mahr” [dower] was her “manumission”. On the way back, “the nuptial night” was arranged as well. Umm Sulaym readied Safiyah and when night fell, she sent her to Muhammad’s bed. (To see this hadith, which exists primarily in Bukhari along with the other most reliable hadith books, and its interpretation of Kamil Miras, please look at the Concise Sahih Bukhari, Clear Interpretation of Tecrit, Ankara, 1985, Religion Institute, 2/299-310)
Why Did Mohammad Take Safiyah?
In reply to this question, briefly the explanation below is offered:
“Safiyah was of a noble family. Her father was the leader of his tribe Banu Nadir and her husband was also a very prominent figure. For this reason, it was inappropriate to give her a commoner. That would be a disgrace for the Jews. The best solution was to make her a wife to “the prophet”. And it was put into practice.
In the explanation of hadith numbered 1612 from the Concise Sahih Bukhari, Clear Interpretation of Tecrit, Religion Institute Publications, Kamil Miras says:
“Hazrat Safiyyah was the daughter of Huyayy ibn Akhtab. She belonged to the most honored family of Banu Nadir and Banu Qurayza. She was the wife of Kinana Ibn Rabi, the chief of Khaiber Jews. ON BOTH SIDES SHE HAD NOBILITY. (…) Giving the wife of Khaiber’s chief and the daughter of most dignified family of Banu Nadir to Dihya would be EXTREME DISHONOR AND SHAME FOR THE JEWS and for that reason it was objected. And Rasul Akram (the prophet) took her back, manumitted and introduced her among his wives by marriage.”
Is this justification logical?
If this is the justification, then the questions are:
Didn’t Muslims put all those who they called “noble and most dignified” to the sword? What on earth was left behind for them to feel disgraceful? The tortures, brutality and massacre committed on Banu Qurayza, declared “most honored”, were ordered by the same Rasul Akram (Muhammad) and of the kind that could only be imaginable among the most primitive men in human history. And all of this information can be found in the documents of Islam’s own sources. But this is not the current discussion. Here, Safiyah is the subject as an object of “Muhammad’s lust”.
But still, I will quote some lines from Prof. Ilhan Aksel:
“Muhammad’s marriage with Safiyah has nothing to with winning the affection of Jews or softening their enmity and resentment. Because the Battle of Khaiber happened in 7 AH. And Muhammad already planned to destroy the Jews and furthered his hostility policies against them as early as 2 AH. When he was on campaign of Khaiber, he was about to bring a successful conclusion to destroying Jews completely. He already exterminated the most prominent Jewish tribes of Medina such as Banu Qaynuqa, Banu Qurayza and Banu Nadir. Now it was the time for Jews of Khaiber… (Ilhan Arsel wrote this in defense of his book “Seriat ve Kadin” [Sharia and Woman] but never published it. T.D.)
Muhammad took Safiyah from Dihya and gave the young man “the sister of Safiyah’s husband” instead. That woman belonged to the same family and therefore she was also a “noble”. So how could she be appropriate for Dihya? Did Muslims forget to consider it would be “a shame” for the Jews as well?
Besides, how could Muhammad sleep with Safiyah on her most mournful day in which all her beloved ones were killed by his own orders? How could he make love to her? Is there an answer to this? Meanwhile, Safiyah was a girl of a very young age and Muhammad was 57.
No need to tell all the stories of Muhammad’s each wife and concubine to demonstrate “Muhammad’s lust” and how “his God” considers it very important and makes things in favour of him. I presume the examples so far explain it clearly. The purpose is to reveal a truth and with the help of all these truths, to contribute to the destruction of “taboos” blocking the path of mankind to a brighter, nicer and freer world…
Why Muhammad had so many wives:
Islamists explain it as follows:
“The Prophet” married them because he felt sorry for some of these women.
First, I have to say this is never the case and it is never compatible with the reality. Did Muhammad ever prefer poor women? Which one of his wives were in that state? In that age, in that region, there were countless poor and desperate women. How many of these women could Muhammad marry? If he did have this purpose, would it be possible to accomplish? So, is the way to solve the problems of the poor and the desperate, for Muhammad to marry them?
“The Prophet” married them because of “political reasons”.
Islamists who defend this argument have to answer these: If Muhammad was a prophet, why on earth would he need such “political reasons”? Was “the help of his God” inadequate? Was the reason for his having so many wives the inadequacy of his God’s help? And what’s more, some of these women were very young, juveniles indeed… And he left them “eternal widows” condemned not to marry after the prophet. It was impossible for those women to marry after him. Because they were declared as “the mothers of believers” in Koran (see, Sura Ahzab, verse:6). Some of them, like Aisha and Juwairiyah, were only 18 or 19 when they were widowed. “Child-widows”. Or was it a necessity of those alleged “political reasons”?
The reason why Muhammad had so many wives and concubines is the same as with any other Arab of that age. It was something desired: Sexual lust and its provision. At least in the beginning. No doubt there were always “two birds with one stone”. But this basic factor should not to be overlooked.
Though Islamists keep saying the prophet never acted on his carnal appetite and he didn’t marry his wives for carnal reasons, the verses, hadiths and truth are evident.
How much time Muhammad spent engaging in intercourse:
“Lust” and “virility” were the most important concerns of Arabs in that time. Ghazali expands on it exhaustively in the chapter of “Kitabu Adabi Nikah” in his well-known book “Ihyau Ulumiddin”. He gives a lot of examples which include many stories and hadiths as follows: Hasan, son of Ali, had four wives at one go and shortly after he divorced them to get new ones. And when Muhammad heard of his grandson, he told “His nature and habits are the same as me.” One hadith says Hasan divorced about 200 wives. Another hadith relates Muhammad saying “Three things in this world have been made lovely to me.” (see Ghazali, Ihyau Ulumiddin, In Arabic, 28-29) Then he indicates that one of those three things is women. Ghazali also suggests that the third verse of Sura Falaq [The Daybreak] which is interpreted as “Say: I seek refuge from the evil of the utterly dark night when it cometh on" may well be interpreted as “Say: I seek refuge from the evil cometh from the urge of the erected penis” informing that this interpretation is made by Ibn Abbas; then he also quotes Junaid Bagdadi (d. 910) “I need having sexual intercourse as I need eating and drinking” and giving other examples, he explains that Junaid Bagdadi wants to emphasize how it is important “to do what is needed to satisfy one’s desire in order to relax” (see same book, p 27)
It is more realistic to approach from this point as to why Muhammad had so many wives and why he was so preoccupied with women. When we consult the hadiths, we see Muhammad spent an incredibly long time on sex. Here is a hadith, Anas tells:
“The Prophet had 9 or 11 wives and he used to visit all of them in a round, during the day and night and he was sleeping with them.”
It is asked: "Did the prophet have the strength for it?" And Anas replies, "Yes. We used to say that the prophet was given the strength of thirty (men)." This hadith also exists in Bukhari’s Sahih.
In some other hadiths, it is told that “the prophet had the strength of 40 men.” But obviously it is an exaggeration. Muslims wanted to establish “Muhammad’s lust” as “a miracle”, too.
In the light of “verses” and “hadiths”, Muhammad’s lust, whether “ordinary” or “distinct”, appears to be privileged by “his God.” And Aisha’s remark is the most striking expression of this privilege: "So your God indeed hastens to meet your needs!"
Herkese merhabalar,
-Uzun olduğu ve tek seferde panoya sığmadığı için çeviriyi iki parçaya böldüm.
-Çevirinin daha başında "Abdullah, son of Ibn Umar, says:" cümlesiyle ile başlayıp "Loots and captives" altbaşlığına kadar devam eder yer orijinalinde de benim çevirimde de aslında bold değil, panoya yapıştırınca oluştu.
-Yine metnin son cümlesinin fontu da farklı görünüyor. O da yapıştırınca oluştu.
Sevgiler
thunderpoint
23-08-2008, 21:30
Sevgili hakan,
Eline sağlık ve hoşgeldin...
Sevgiler...
Dear Hakanp, I would like to welcome you to our group.
I was nicely surprised to see a new name in the group; and the work that person has done, put a nicer smile to my face. Thanks for joining....