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  #201  
Alt 27-03-2012, 17:15
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Bu sozde belgesel, Mustafa Kemal'in de ateist, yani bizler gibi oldugunu gosteriyor. Basini izledim, bos bir zamanimda gerisine de bakacagim.

Iman, ask gibidir,gozleri koreltir,beyni muhurler.
  #202  
Alt 27-03-2012, 18:56
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Sargon konuyu dağıtmama adına başka bir başlıkta modernite kavramını enine boyuna tartışalım.

Demokrasi kavramının modernizmin tarihsel ve zorunlu bir ürünü olduğunu düşünüyorum. Bugün anladığımız anlamda demokrasi kavramı elbette belli bir tarihsel sürecin ürünüdür. Kendisini de 2.Dünya savaşı sonrasında ortaya koyar deyip bu başlıkta söyleyeceklerimi sonlandırayım.

İnsani olan her şey kabûlüm.
  #203  
Alt 27-03-2012, 21:17
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bu küçük mavi kaya parçası üzerinde türümüzü devam ettirmenin en sağlıklı yolu farklılıklarımıza göre birbirimizi bölmek değil, ortak yönlerimizi görerek bütünleşmektir. Ülkeler, sınırlar ve milletler sadece daha fazla kan ve daha fazla ölüme sebep oluyor. - ascent
Ben de Taylan gibi düşünüyorum. Son derece güzel ancak şuan itibariyle gerçekçi değil. Keşke savaşlar olmasa. Ancak insan türü var oldukça savaşlar devam edecektir diye düşünüyorum. Bu savaş sadece silahla da olmaz. Farklı proseslerle görülebilecektir.

Farklılıklarımız var mıdır?
Sonuçta hepimiz insanız.

Ufak bir duyuru: 2022'den once Natan kullanici adiyla yaptigim tum aciklamalar, makaleler, yazilar, veyahut felsefi/ideolojik/dinsel/politik goruslerin hic birini artik desteklemiyor, benimsemiyorum.
  #204  
Alt 27-03-2012, 22:10
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Haklisin frodo. Bu basligi cok dagittik. Yeni bir baslik actim.

http://www.turandursun.com/forumlar/...573#post435573

"Daha önce ben televizyona bakıyordum, şimdi televizyon bana bakıyor
Mısırlı bir gösterici
http://sargon.blogcu.com/
  #205  
Alt 28-03-2012, 00:01
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From FORWARD, a Jewish newspaper published in New York.
January 28, 1994 (www.forward.com)

When Kemal Ataturk Recited Shema Yisrael

"It's My Secret Prayer, Too," He Confessed

By Hillel Halkin


ZICHRON YAAKOV - There were two questions I wanted to ask, I said over the phone to Batya Keinan, spokeswoman for Israeli president Ezer Weizman, who was about to leave the next day, Monday, Jan. 24, on the first visit ever made to Turkey by a Jewish chief of state. One was whether Mr. Weizman would be taking part in an official ceremony commemorating Kemal Ataturk.

Ms. Kenan checked the president's itinerary, according to which he and his wife would lay a wreath on Ataturk's grave the morning of their arrival, and asked what my second question was.

"Does President Weizman know that Ataturk had Jewish ancestors and was taught Hebrew prayers as a boy?"

"Of course, of course," she answered as unsurprisedly as if I had inquired whether the president was aware that Ataturk was Turkey's national hero.

Excited and Distressed
I thanked her and hung up. A few minutes later it occurred to me to call back and ask whether President Weizman intended to make any reference while in Turkey to Ataturk's Jewish antecedents. "I'm so glad you called again," said Ms. Kenan, who now sounded excited and a bit distressed. "Exactly where did you get your information from?"
Why was she asking, I countered, if the president's office had it too?
Because it did not, she confessed. She had only assumed that it must because I had sounded so matter-of-fact myself. "After you hung up," she said, "I mentioned what you told me and nobody here knows anything about it. Could you please fax us what you know?"

I faxed her a short version of it. Here is a longer one.

Stories about the Jewishness of Ataturk, whose statue stands in the main square of every town and city in Turkey, already circulated in his lifetime but were denied by him and his family and never taken seriously by biographers. Of six biographies of him that I consulted this week, none even mentions such a speculation. The only scholarly reference to it in print that I could find was in the entry on Ataturk in the Israeli Entsiklopedya ha-Ivrit, which begins:

"Mustafa Kemal Ataturk - (1881-1938), Turkish general and statesman and founder of the modern Turkish state.

"Mustafa Kemal was born to the family of a minor customs clerk in Salonika and lost his father when he was young. There is no proof of the belief, widespread among both Jews and Muslims in Turkey, that his family came from the Doenme. As a boy he rebelled against his mother's desire to give him a traditional religious education, and at the age of 12 he was sent at his demand to study in a military academy."

Secular Father
The Doenme were an underground sect of Sabbetaians, Turkish Jews who took Muslim names and outwardly behaved like Muslims but secretly believed in Sabbetai Zevi, the 17th-century false messiah, and conducted carefully guarded prayers and rituals in his name. The encyclopedia's version of Ataturk's education, however, is somewhat at variance with his own. Here is his account of it as quoted by his biographers:

"My father was a man of liberal views, rather hostile to religion, and a partisan of Western ideas. He would have preferred to see me go to a * lay school, which did not found its teaching on the Koran but on modern science.

"In this battle of consciences, my father managed to gain the victory after a small maneuver; he pretended to give in to my mother's wishes, and arranged that I should enter the [Islamic] school of Fatma Molla Kadin with the traditional ceremony. ...

"Six months later, more or less, my father quietly withdrew me from the school and took me to that of old Shemsi Effendi who directed a free preparatory school according to European methods. My mother made no objection, since her desires had been complied with and her conventions respected. It was the ceremony above all which had satisfied her."

Who was Mustafa Kemal's father, who behaved here in typical Doenme fashion, outwardly observing Muslim ceremonies while inwardly scoffing at them? Ataturk's mother Zubeyde came from the mountains west of Salonika, close to the current Albanian frontier; of the origins of his father, Ali Riza, little is known. Different writers have given them as Albanian, Anatolian and Salonikan, and Lord Kinross' compendious 1964 "Ataturk" calls Ali Riza a "shadowy personality" and adds cryptically regarding Ataturk's reluctance to disclose more about his family background: "To the child of so mixed an environment it would seldom occur, wherever his racial loyalties lay, to inquire too exactly into his personal origins beyond that of his parentage."

Learning Hebrew
Did Kinross suspect more than he was admitting? I would never have asked had I not recently come across a remarkable chapter while browsing in the out-of-print Hebrew autobiography of Itamar Ben-Avi, son of Eliezer Ben-Yehuda, the leading promoter of the revival of spoken Hebrew in late 19th-century Palestine. Ben-Avi, the first child to be raised in Hebrew since ancient times and later a Hebrew journalist and newspaper publisher, writes in this book of walking into the Kamenitz Hotel in Jerusalem one autumn night in 1911 and being asked by its proprietor: " 'Do you see that Turkish officer sitting there in the corner, the one* with the bottle of arrack?' "

" 'Yes.' "
" 'He's one of the most important officers in the Turkish army.' "
" 'What's his name?' "
" 'Mustafa Kemal.' "
" 'I'd like to meet him,' I said, because the minute I looked at him I was startled by his piercing green eyes."

Ben-Avi describes two meetings with Mustafa Kemal, who had not yet taken the name of Ataturk, 'Father of the Turks.' Both were conducted in French, were largely devoted to Ottoman politics, and were doused with large amounts of arrack. In the first of these, Kemal confided:

"I'm a descendant of Sabbetai Zevi - not indeed a Jew any more, but an ardent admirer of this prophet of yours. My opinion is that every Jew in this country would do well to join his camp."

During their second meeting, held 10 days later in the same hotel, Mustafa Kemal said at one point:"

'I have at home a Hebrew Bible printed in Venice. It's rather old, and I remember my father bringing me to a Karaite teacher who taught me to read it. I can still remember a few words of it, such as --' "

And Ben-Avi continues:
"He paused for a moment, his eyes searching for something in space. Then he recalled:
" 'Shema Yisra'el, Adonai Elohenu, Adonai Ehad!'
" 'That's our most important prayer, Captain.'
" 'And my secret prayer too, cher monsieur,' he replied, refilling our glasses."

Although Itamar Ben-Avi could not have known it, Ataturk no doubt meant "secret prayer" quite literally. Among the esoteric prayers of the Doenme, first made known to the scholarly world when a book of them reached the National Library in Jerusalem in 1935, is one containing the confession of faith:

"Sabbetai Zevi and none other is the true Messiah. Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one."

It was undoubtedly from this credo, rather than from the Bible, that Ataturk remembered the words of the Shema, which to the best of my knowledge he confessed knowing but once in his adult life: to a young Hebrew journalist whom he engaged in two tipsily animated conversations in Jerusalem nearly a decade before he took control of the Turkish army after its disastrous defeat in World War I, beat back the invading Greeks and founded a secular Turkish republic in which Islam was banished - once and for all, so he thought - to the mosques.

Ataturk would have had good reasons for concealing his Doenme origins. Not only were the Doenmes (who married only among themselves and numbered close to 15,000, largely concentrated in Salonika, on the eve of World War I) looked down on as heretics by both Muslims and Jews, they had a reputation for sexual profligacy that could hardly have been flattering to their offspring. This license, which was theologically justified by the claim that it reflected the faithful's freedom from the biblical commandments under the new dispensation of Sabbetai Zevi, is described by Ezer Weizman's predecessor, Israel's second president, Yitzchak Ben-Zvi, in his book on lost Jewish communities, "The Exiled and the Redeemed":
'Saintly Offspring'

"Once a year [during the Doenmes' annual 'Sheep holiday'] the candles are put out in the course of a dinner which is attended by orgies and the ceremony of the exchange of wives. ... The rite is practiced on the night of Sabbetai Zevi's traditional bithday. ... It is believed that children born of such unions are regarded as saintly."

Although Ben-Zvi, writing in the 1950s, thought that "There is reason to believe that this ceremony has not been entirely abandoned and continues to this day," little is known about whether any of the Doenmes' traditional practices or social structures still survive in modern Turkey. The community abandoned Salonika along with the city's other Turkish residents during the Greco-Turkish war of 1920-21, and its descendants, many of whom are said to be wealthy businessmen and merchants in Istanbul, are generally thought to have assimilated totally into Turkish life.
After sending my fax to Batya Keinan, I phoned to check that she had received it. She had indeed, she said, and would see to it that the president was given it to read on his flight to Ankara. It is doubtful, however, whether Mr. Weizman will allude to it during his visit: The Turkish government, which for years has been fending off Muslim fundamentalist assaults on its legitimacy and on the secular reforms of Ataturk, has little reason to welcome the news that the father of the 'Father of the Turks' was a crypto-Jew who passed on his anti-Muslim sentiments to his son. Mustafa Kemal's secret is no doubt one that it would prefer to continue to be kept.
  #206  
Alt 28-03-2012, 00:05
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Ataturk's Turkey Overturned

By HILLEL HALKIN

New York THE SUN


Some 12 or 13 years ago, when I was reporting from Israel for the New York weekly, the Forward, I wrote a piece on Kemal Ataturk, the founder of modern secular Turkey, that I submitted to the newspaper with some trepidation.
In it, I presented evidence for the likelihood of Ataturk's having had a Jewish — or more precisely, a Doenmeh — father.
The Doenmeh were a heretical Jewish sect formed, after the conversion to Islam in the 17th century of the Turkish-Jewish messianic pretender Sabbetai Zevi, by those of his followers who continued to believe in him.
Conducting themselves outwardly as Muslims in imitation of him, they lived secretly as Jews and continued to exist as a distinct, if shadowy, group well into the 20th century.
In the many biographies of Ataturk there were three or four different versions of his father's background, and although none identified him as a Jew, their very multiplicity suggested that he had been covering up his family origins.
This evidence, though limited, was intriguing. Its strongest item was a chapter in a long-forgotten autobiography of the Hebrew journalist, Itamar Ben-Avi, who described in his book a chance meeting on a rainy night in the late winter of 1911 in the bar of a Jerusalem hotel with a young Turkish captain.
Tipsy from too much arak, the captain confided to Ben-Avi that he was Jewish and recited the opening Hebrew words of the Shema Yisra'el or "Hear O Israel" prayer, which almost any Jew or Doenmeh — but no Turkish Muslim — would have known. Ten years later, Ben-Avi wrote, he opened a newspaper, saw a headline about a military coup in Turkey, and in a photograph recognized the leader that the young officer he had met the other night.
At the time, Islamic political opposition to Ataturk-style secularism was gaining strength in Turkey. What would happen, I wondered, when a Jewish newspaper in New York broke the news that the revered founder of modern Turkey was half-Jewish? I pictured riots, statues of Ataturk toppling to the ground, the secular state he had created tottering with them.
I could have spared myself the anxiety. The piece was run in the Forward, there was hardly any reaction to it anywhere, and life in Turkey went on as before. As far as I knew, not a single Turk even read what I wrote. And then, a few months ago, I received an e-mail from someone who had. I won't mention his name. He lives in a European country, is well-educated, works in the financial industry, is a staunchly secular Kemalist, and was writing to tell me that he had come across my article in the Forward and had decided to do some historical research in regard to it.
One thing he discovered, he wrote, was that Ataturk indeed traveled in the late winter of 1911 to Egypt from Damascus on his way to join the Turkish forces fighting an Italian army in Libya, a route that would have taken him through Jerusalem just when Ben-Avi claimed to have met him there.
Moreover, in 1911 he was indeed a captain, and his fondness of alcohol, which Ben-Avi could not have known about when he wrote his autobiography, is well-documented.
And here's something else that was turned up by my Turkish e-mail correspondent: Ataturk, who was born and raised in Thessaloniki, a heavily Jewish city in his day that had a large Doenmeh population, attended a grade school, known as the "Semsi Effendi School," that was run by a religious leader of the Doenmeh community named Simon Zvi. The email concluded with the sentence: "I now know — know (and I haven't a shred of doubt) — that Ataturk's father's family was indeed of Jewish stock."
I haven't a shred of doubt either. I just have, this time, less trepidation, not only because I no longer suffer from delusions of grandeur regarding the possible effects of my columns, but because there's no need to fear toppling the secular establishment of Kemalist Turkey.
It toppled for good in the Turkish elections two days ago when the Islamic Justice and Development Party was returned to power with so overwhelming a victory over its rivals that it seems safe to say that secular Turkey, at least as Ataturk envisioned it, is a thing of the past.
Actually, Ataturk's Jewishness, which he systematically sought to conceal, explains a great deal about him, above all, his fierce hostility toward Islam, the religion in which nearly every Turk of his day had been raised, and his iron-willed determination to create a strictly secular Turkish nationalism from which the Islamic component would be banished.
Who but a member of a religious minority would want so badly to eliminate religion from the identity of a Muslim majority that, after the genocide of Turkey's Christian Armenians in World War I and the expulsion of nearly all of its Christian Greeks in the early 1920s, was 99% of Turkey's population? The same motivation caused the banner of secular Arab nationalism to be first raised in the Arab world by Christian intellectuals.
Ataturk seems never to have been ashamed of his Jewish background. He hid it because it would have been political suicide not to, and the secular Turkish state that was his legacy hid it too, and with it, his personal diary, which was never published and has for all intents and purposes been kept a state secret all these years. There's no need to hide it any longer. The Islamic counterrevolution has won the day in Turkey even without its exposure.
Mr. Halkin is a contributing editor of The New York Sun.
http://www.nysun.com/opinion/ataturk...rturned/58997/
  #207  
Alt 03-04-2012, 12:57
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Konuyla ilgili olmayabilir fakat, başlık açamadığım için, soruyu ancak bu başlık altında sorabilirim sanırım...

Kemalizm ve Faşizm ilişkisi gerçek mi?

Tarih 22 Mayıs 1932: Cumhuriyet gazetesinin manşeti: ‘Kemalist Türkiye’den Faşist İtalya’ya selam!’ Manşetteki fotoğrafta ise, Türk bayrağının içerisine yerleştirilmiş, Benito Mussolini’nin lideri olduğu İtalyan Nasyonal Faşist Parti’nin simgesi yer alıyor.

Birinci sayfadaki haberin diğer ara başlıkları şöyle:


Başvekil (İsmet İnönü) bu sabah şehrimizden geçerek İtalya’ya gidiyor.

Roma’da yekdiğerini müsaraatle sıkılacak eller, mensup oldukları milletlerin selamet ve saadetleri kadar Akdeniz’de sulhü müsalemeti de temin edecek kudretli manivelâlardır.

Haberde fotoğraf olarak Bir Türk bayrağı ve bu bayrağın içine oturtulmuş Benito Mussolini’nin lideri olduğu Nasyonal Faşist Parti’nin simgesi var.




Bu da: İtalyan Nasyonal Faşist Parti amblemi...

Ne düşünüyorsunuz?


Bunlar gerçek midir veya gerçek'se eğer; yıllarca saklanma sebebi (sebepleri) nelerdir?
Bizler gerçeği isteriz. Doğruyu, doğru olup olmayanları bilmek'de insani değerlerimiz değil midir?
  #208  
Alt 03-04-2012, 13:15
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taylan´isimli üyeden Alıntı Mesajı göster
Dünya barışı vs bunlar gerçekçi değil. İnsanoğlu hiç bir zaman rahat durmaz. Sürekli arıza çıkartır. Yaşam yamyamcadır ve insanın kültürel evrimi bile bunu durdurmaya yetmez.
Ata'sının milliyetçiliğini savunabilmek için insan türüne küfretmeyi seçen bir arkadaşımız.

Tabiat ana hidayet versin.
  #209  
Alt 04-04-2012, 09:54
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nebukadnezar Diyor ki
Bunlar gerçek midir veya gerçek'se eğer; yıllarca saklanma sebebi (sebepleri) nelerdir?
Bizler gerçeği isteriz. Doğruyu, doğru olup olmayanları bilmek'de insani değerlerimiz değil midir?
Elbette gercek. Saklanma sebebi de II. Dünya savasinda Almanya ve Italya'nin yenilmesidir. Eger Almanya ve Italya yenilmeseyedi kimse bunlari saklama ihtiyaci duymazdi. Askeri zaferin ardindan fasizme ve nasyonal sosyalizme karsi yürütülen anti-propaganda ile kitlelerde bunlara karsi nefret olusturuldu.

Türkiye'deki 1929-1945 arasindaki rejim bircok acidan Italya'dakine benzer. >bak<

"Daha önce ben televizyona bakıyordum, şimdi televizyon bana bakıyor
Mısırlı bir gösterici
http://sargon.blogcu.com/
  #210  
Alt 04-04-2012, 15:25
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sargon´isimli üyeden Alıntı Mesajı göster
Elbette gercek. Saklanma sebebi de II. Dünya savasinda Almanya ve Italya'nin yenilmesidir. Eger Almanya ve Italya yenilmeseyedi kimse bunlari saklama ihtiyaci duymazdi. Askeri zaferin ardindan fasizme ve nasyonal sosyalizme karsi yürütülen anti-propaganda ile kitlelerde bunlara karsi nefret olusturuldu.

Türkiye'deki 1929-1945 arasindaki rejim bircok acidan Italya'dakine benzer. >bak<

Yani aslında Türkiye 75- 80 yıldır devletin idaresinin, kayıtsız şartsiz bir kişinin elinde bulunduğu (diktatör) yönetim şekliydi.

Aynı durum, roma cumhuriyeti devrinde kullanılan memleketin güvenliğini ilgilendiren acele bir durum karşisinda, bir kimse senato tarafindan yedi yil süresince diktatör olarak tâyin edilip memleketin idare edildiği yillar içinde, kayitsiz-şartsiz hükümdarlık yapması gibi...

Ülkemizdeki Cumhur başkanlığı seçimleri o yüzden mi her 7 yılda bir yapılıyordu?

Peki tüm bunlar neden?
İnsanları esaret altına almak, bazı kişiler için akıllık olarak değerlendirilebilir; ama gerçeğin ta kendisi ise; evrim'i yaşayan dünya ile her canlının evrim geçirebileceği gibi, beyinlerin de evrim geçirebileceği gerçeğini görebilmek bence esas akıllılıktır.

Bir gün her şeyin tersine döneceğini bilemediler mi?
Bence yaptıkları şeyler akıllılık değil, Çakallık dır, bana göre fikirlerin zararlarını görmemek halkını savunmaktan geçer.
Milletin iradesini hafife almamak gerekir.

Sayın Sargon size çok teşekkür ederim.
Ek olarak verdiğiniz link'i okudum, güzel açıklamalar var. Umarım bu konuda daha geniş bir çalışmanız olur ve bana bildirirsiniz.
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Bütün Zaman Ayarları WEZ +3 olarak düzenlenmiştir. Şu Anki Saat: 13:56 .